[00:00:07] Speaker A: This is Missy Martinez Stone, and you're listening to the centered podcast where we have unifying conversations on the divisive subject of abortion.
Hello and welcome to the centered podcast. I'm your host, Missy Martinez Stone. And today we have one of my favorite, favorite people in the pro life movement, Lauren Muzyka. Lauren is the president and CEO of sidewalk advocates for life. She is a licensed attorney whose passion for defending the sanctity of life led her into the pro life movement. For over two years, Lauren served as a campaign strategist for the national 40 Days for Life team, advising over 300 campaigns in North America. Inspired by the transformative power of prayer and peaceful outreach on the sidewalk, Lauren founded Sidewalk Advocates for life in 2014. Lauren is a trained sidewalk advocate of more than 20 years. And we are actually recording together today because Lauren and I, she is in Louisville with me working on some big secret projects that you'll hear more about soon. But since she was here, I thought it would be a perfect opportunity to talk about the work that we're doing together. But since she was here, I thought it was the perfect opportunity to talk about how we work together but do very different things. Right.
So. Hi.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: Hi, missy. Good to be with you.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: I'm so happy you're here.
Her and my dog have been bonding significantly.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: I love Mary Puppins.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Yes. So we have another, a fellow pro life advocate and animal lover, so we really enjoy our time together.
Let's start with psywic advocates.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: So you have a law degree. How did you end up running prayer and advocacy campaigns outside of abortion facilities?
[00:02:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, man. That's a whole story. But I'll give you the short version. I'll give everybody the short version. So the short answer to that is that it was always something that I did on the side, and my hobby or my ministry became my life's work. So I attended Texas A and M university, and there was an invitation to those of us that attended local churches and beyond to go pray 1 hour a week in front of the brand new Planned Parenthood abortion facility that had just gone up in our college town. And I thought to myself, okay, I can go do that. I can go stand and witness to what is going on inside this building, to be there for these women and hopefully save children from death.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: And this is while you're in college?
[00:02:48] Speaker B: This is while I'm in college. And so my freshman year, praying 1 hour a week in front of the local planned Parenthood facility. And then there was an offer to get trained as a sidewalk counselor and I had the thought, like, I'm not usually at a loss for words, and so maybe I could go ahead and take some of my gifts and talents to the sidewalk. Although I will say, I believe introverts can be just as powerful as extroverts on the sidewalk, I have seen it firsthand.
And so anyways, I got trained as a sidewalk counselor. And I will say, like, watching the journey in front of the fence, that's what was transformative to me, because so before 40 days for life, this is the Brazos Valley Coalition for Life that birthed the very 1st 40 days for Life campaign. They were behind the prayer and the outreach in front of this facility.
But 40 days for life was still a few years away. And so I was going to the sidewalk and seeing lots of interesting things. Like, there was a guy who would dress up like the grim reaper and pace up and down the sidewalk. There was a woman with, like, 30 times life size abortion victim photo. There was a man who would, like, get a pole and stake it in the ground and raise the american flag, as if to say, I can't believe this is legal in our country. And so it was kind of like chaos on our side of the fence. I was peaceful, but I was guilty by association, right. Because the community was trying all sorts of different things. The Brazos Valley was really trying to promote prayer and peaceful outreach. But so anyway, this is like, what?
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Like early two thousands?
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: So this was before there was really a effort to train people outside the sidewalks. On the sidewalks. There wasn't like a curriculum. There wasn't.
People were still trying to figure out what does ministry outside of abortion facilities look like. There weren't standard procedures at that point of, like, we know, based on research and data that this is how you reach people. Right. So, like, there was a big gap here, right. Because when you say you were trained as a sidewalk counselor, I mean, there wasn't a lot of information at that point of, like, what is a sidewalk counselor, right?
[00:04:57] Speaker B: That's right. You might find a trainer here and there. Like, they brought in beautiful baptist woman from Georgia named Karen Black, who is famous for having helped save thousands of babies, right. And she had a very, like, loving, woman oriented approach that really was kind of ahead of its time. Like, you know, pregnancy centers kind of got this understanding that in order to save the baby, you have to reach the mother first and address her crisis situation. But it's like, in our community, on the sidewalk, it was more like, hey, let's throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks right. And so anyways, it wasn't until this thing called 40 days for life showed up. So, you know, my friends, David B. Wright, Sean Carney, his wife Mary Lisa, and a volunteer named Emily had a prayer around an old wooden table for an hour inside the Brazos Valley Coalition for Life. Again, that peaceful activist organization that was behind the prayer and the peaceful outreach. And they said, hey, periods of 40 days throughout biblical history have brought about transformation in God's people. Could we see a transformation here if we covered this facility 24/7 in prayer for 40 days? And so that was the very 1st 40 days for Life campaign. And so what I saw with my own eyes is that an atmosphere that had been chaotic and disorganized and apprehensive had gone to becoming suddenly peaceful, prayerful, and purposeful. And the other thing that it did was it created a safe place for women to come to the fence and talk. And so they went to all the characters out on the sidewalk and they said, hey, just for 40 days, will you put this tactic away? We're just going to have prayer. We're just going to have sidewalk counseling. And I watched this transformation, and I remembered at that time thinking, wow, women are coming to the fence to talk. Like my prayer just got answered of, God, how do I reach these women? Right? Because, again, I might have had a peaceful approach, but there was chaos around me.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Yeah, because you're coming out of like the eighties and the nineties where there was, you know, the people were physically blocking facilities. I mean, they were doing the best they could with what they knew at the time. Right, right. And it was a. It was a much more chaotic approach. But once we all could kind of step back and go, okay, let's actually evaluate the situation and see what is effective. And I think there was a big shift around that time from, it's not just about saving babies, which that is very, very important, but it's about reaching moms. And I think that's when the movement kind of started shifting away from what I call fetus tonal vision, you know, and looking at it more holistically.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: And so I could see that it's like you do the best you can until you know better, and then you do better.
[00:07:39] Speaker B: Exactly. I think remembering, too, that, like, love is the centerpiece of this ministry, of this outreach, that you can't save children without helping their mothers. In order for abortion to end, you have to reach the heart of a woman in crisis. And how does a woman in crisis best respond? Does she go talk to the grim reaper? Does she run to really, what is a loud image in her face? Does she go to the guy who's raising the american flag? All of those people had great intentions, and I so appreciate their passion. But it wasn't until I saw this, this atmosphere completely changed that I said, this is it. And so, anyways, I still didn't get the clue that maybe I was called to this full time. I went to law school thinking I was going to be a pro life, pro family litigator or lobbyist, and instead I got swept back into grassroots pro life work. I went to go work for 40 days for Life national for a couple years and then saw a need and felt the call to start sidewalk advocates for life. That just as 40 days for life had provided this ready made vigil program that, again, was having all these miracles. Because soon after it started in college Station, it began to spread across the country and the world, and I was just captivated. This was also the site. So when I was in college, I prayed outside of former Planned Parenthood director Abby Johnson's abortion facility. And so I watched abortion workers then start to leave because of love and prayer and peaceful outreach. And so I said, this is it. This is what we should be doing. And again, this method is credited with tens of thousands of lives saved and mothers saved from abortion. So here we are, sidewalk advocates for life. Ten years later, and now we have witnessed nearly 23,000 women choose life for their babies. We've helped 99 abortion workers leave the business with the help and witness of a sidewalk advocate. And then when you're hitting abortion businesses from both ends, you're eliminating demand and you're eliminating supply, so to speak. Right? Meaning, like, when you're bringing workers out of the business and no one's there to do abortions, you're hitting the supply end of abortion. And so it's hard for these facilities to stay open. And so now we've seen 55 facility closures where we've had an SAFL outreach presence.
[00:09:48] Speaker A: I love it. And how many locations do you have now?
[00:09:51] Speaker B: So we have 282. We cover about one third of all us abortion and abortion referral centers. Abortion referral centers. Quite often are these, you know, Planned Parenthood, so called family planning centers that are acting really as abortion referral facilities in our pro life states. And so now, especially in post war America, they're serving as gateways to the next nearest abortion facility, 300, 600 miles away.
[00:10:18] Speaker A: I often point to you when I talk to other pro life leaders and supporters about when Roe was overturned. There was so many national organizations that had to rethink their strategy. Right.
Because there are some groups that their entire existence hinged on Roe versus Wade being the law of the land. Right. And I'm so thankful that's now been reversed. And we had that incredible victory, but so many organizations had to step back and say, we are in a new landscape now. And I point to you and I say there's some people who've done it really well and there's other people who haven't. We won't name names, but when you said, okay, now these facilities, there's gonna be states that don't have physical abortion facilities anymore. Right, right.
Or they're gonna be abortion referral centers. Your team sat and said, okay, so how do we adjust to this new landscape to, like, stay effective? And I love that you move to. The sidewalk is everywhere. I just thought that was just brilliant because there is so many people that are so stuck in.
This is just how it's been for the past 40 years, you know, and that's great. And maybe it worked right before Roe was overturned, but then, you know, we are dealing in a completely different climate now, and we have to be able to adjust. And so talk about how you have, you know, changed your strategy or, you know, adjusted in that way to meet this new. To function in this new landscape.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I think leadership really, at its core, is the ability to adapt and pivot. Right. And I still remember when Roe was overturned, some of our top donors came to us and they said, oh, well, we only need to give half as much because abortion has really gone in half the states. And we said, wait, no, no. Right.
You know, it's not like Roe was overturned and all of a sudden, unexpected pregnancy ended in Texas, Tennessee and Louisiana. Right. Women are still in crisis. They still need her help. They're getting funneled by the abortion industry to the pro abortion states, abortion tourist areas and beyond, and ordering pills online. That's right.
[00:12:48] Speaker A: And getting them with no medical oversight because that's what's happening in Kentucky. I talked to the pregnancy center here and they said, yeah, we're still seeing a lot of clients. They're just ordering them on the mail even though abortion is illegal in Kentucky. So.
[00:13:00] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:01] Speaker A: We're trying to raise the flag. Like, abortions are still happening, but the new data came out that it's actually up. Yeah, abortions went up. And that's. Yeah, those are just the ones that are reported.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:11] Speaker A: So that's not even including mail order abortions. And so, like, taking that back seat to be like, great, we did it. No.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:16] Speaker A: They're still happening in these states where it's illegal.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:19] Speaker A: We have to pivot.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. So our program works now in front of an abortion facility, an abortion referral facility in a pro life state. And really there's other still abortion referral centers in pro abortion states. Right. So we need to know that. And it also works in communities where there isn't any one of these facilities. So, like Pensacola, Florida, which is now abortion free. Right, so to speak, they are taking our program to the proverbial town square. They're going to a high traffic area with a mobile unit handing out pregnancy help information.
You still need sidewalk advocates to invite women onto the mobile unit or to get this information into their hands. And so it's like where women are, we need to go. We're the boots on the ground. And we're even getting ready to deploy a team of online sidewalk advocates that are going to go into chat rooms and they're going to interface with women who are asking questions like, where can I get abortion pills? Or, hey, I don't know what to do. And these, you know, women are starting chats like this on Reddit and baby center boards and, you know, on Facebook and things like that. And so, you know, we had a leader, Hamey, in Fort Pierce, Florida, who helped to save a baby in California because she, she used her training, she used her skills. These are universal skills about how to reach a woman in crisis and love her into a decision for life.
[00:14:38] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, there's, there are components of it that are a little different because you're not, you're not physically interfacing with.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:14:45] Speaker A: Because I know, like, one of the things is like, don't wear sunglasses. Right.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: Don't wear hats.
[00:14:50] Speaker A: Right.
But the principle is the same and what you are offering is the same. And how you approach these situations is the same. But you've adapted it to our new battleground.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean, this is natural law. This is, we even had a woman who was an atheist go through our program and she said, this is just love to me.
This is what you do when you care about human beings. These are human principles. And so there's so many stories I could tell a million stories of sidewalk advocates who said, my training helped me in a variety of situations, be able to meet someone in crisis and love them and serve them and help them to get to where they needed to be.
[00:15:35] Speaker A: It's a life skill.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: It's absolutely a life skill like, you are teaching them in this specific area, but really, you're giving them life skills and principles that can be applied anyway in their life, you know, which I just think is so beautiful.
[00:15:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: One of the things that is unique about our two organizations is that they can't function in a vacuum.
[00:16:03] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:16:03] Speaker A: Like, at their core, we cannot do our work unless we have psych advocates in pregnancy centers and policymakers and psych advocates like, you need the pregnancy centers to referred to, like, by nature of their. Of the mission and. And the core of what we do. We have to rely on other people, and sometimes that can be difficult. You know, we have. We have a focus on unity and the value of partnering together.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: So talk about how psych advocates interfaces with. Like, you're referring people to pregnancy centers, you're referring abortion workers to. And then there were none. You know, what do these partnerships look like?
[00:16:53] Speaker B: Yeah. So we see ourselves as the gateway to the life affirming resources in the community or in the nation. Right. So for a woman in crisis considering abortion, we always refer her to the local life affirming pregnancy resource center. These centers outnumber abortion facilities more than four to one. They are the jack of all trades in our communities. They can help women with rent, groceries, a place to live, you know, getting insurance, finding a job, and beyond. And it's not to say we won't be there for her, but we function best as crisis intervention. We're intervening, so to speak, at a critical moment in a woman's life. But our goal is to get her into the arms of those who are trained to do ongoing crisis management, because there is a risk that she may choose life with us on the sidewalk and then go back home into all of the pressures that brought her there in the first place. And so that's our mo. It's like we never end a conversation without an invitation to the pregnancy center. We're like that sales team for life out on the sidewalk.
And it also comes from the understanding. It's like commitment and consistency in the psychology of influence. She has understood planned parenthood perspectively to be her savior. Right? Dollar 500. Nobody has to know. Life will magically go back to normal, get this done. Right. And so, a lot of times, it's not effective to tell someone, don't do this. It's more effective to get them to make a new commitment to resolve their crisis or find a solution. And so that's why it's more effective to say, we're here for you, and here's how we can help really ultimately resolve this crisis for you in peace. Then with workers, it's referring them to. And then there were non abortion worker ministry, because it's almost like they're the pregnancy center for the Nation for Workers, so to speak. Right. By analogy. So we have somewhere to send them. And then really, like, there's so many women that are going in for a variety of, like, healthcare stuff, like well woman exam, breast exam, STD, STI testing. We always say, if it's not a morally problematic service, we refer elsewhere. And so we research in our communities, pro life ob gyns, federally qualified health centers, and other community health organizations that outnumber planned parenthoods more than 20 to one. And so the idea is, you're right. We don't function in a vacuum. We are like the fairy godmothers, godfathers out on the sidewalk offering free services, support, support, love, help, but life affirming health care.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: And that's very much how we see ourselves as we are a bridge, I think, in the early two thousands, as these amazing organizations started to become established and the pro life movement started thinking more strategically and using data and research and marketing and creating these amazing resources, it created a lot of silos.
Providing incredible resources, but silos. And then now we're at the point where as a movement, we're going, how do we bring all this together? Because what we have seen when we've come in and bridged all these silos, that's when we see abortion facilities shut down, right? Is when all of these amazing pro life efforts are doing the thing that they do well, but in communication, in a bigger, organized fashion together.
So it's. The Siwak advocates are fully trained and resourced by you guys, and the pregnancy centers are fully resourced and trained by heartbeat or nifla or carenet. And they're. They have amazing resources and marketing, and they have medical services, and then you've got policymakers that are using legislation by Aul or SBA pro life America that is written, you know, really well. And when we all can get around a table and go, okay, we're all doing our thing. We're doing it well.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:20:48] Speaker A: That's when we see success. And I think it requires.
What I love about our working relationship and the people that we've pulled into this kind of network is that I think it was pretty early on in our professional relationship where you would say, like, we check our ego at the door, right? Because we have to be fully competent in the thing that we do so as to not feel territorial or intimidated or like, I am fully okay saying, I would be a terrible psych advocate. And I know that you think introverts would be good at it, but I know myself. I would fall apart. I would fall apart in that setting. I do not thrive in that setting. You do not want me out there, and that's fine.
[00:21:31] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: Fine.
Whereas you were like, yes, like, I want it. Right. And then yesterday, you know, we're in this meeting, and I'm getting really deep into data and research and just like, what a lot of people would find really boring. I'm like, this is fascinating. Your eyes are, like, glazing over. But it's like having, being able to do this and be successful in these communities. We have to have the self confidence and our own self worth to go. This is what I bring to the table. And it's okay that I'm not all things to all people.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: That's right. Like, I'll just give an example. There was a sidewalk group. I won't name who they are, where they are for a while in the beginning, because they were trying to be all things to all people. They were handling abortion pill reversals themselves. They were walking workers through what they perceived to be an appropriate healing process without really understanding the psychology of someone who has worked in the industry. And it started to tank their ministry because they were, they spread so thin.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: And you can't be an expert in all of these.
[00:22:36] Speaker B: Right, right. It's like, if we're willing to do the thing that we've been given and to do it well, we're going to save so many more children. We're going to help so many more mothers. Like, at the end of the day, I don't really care if anybody ever knows my name. For me, it's a faith thing. Right. It's a faith thing. I want somebody else to be glorified, not me. Right. This isn't about us. I think the important thing to remember is, like, what are we really after in this movement? Are we after lives and souls and family and, you know, everything that makes us good? And it's just, I just don't understand the need to take over everything. I don't know what it accomplishes for our movement. It's just a good reflection for any of us who are in leadership. Yeah.
[00:23:20] Speaker A: Like, know your strengths.
[00:23:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:21] Speaker A: And. And really dive into that, because that's when you can bring so much value to something, you know? And it's not saying that I'm not valuable when I don't do other things. But if you want to get the most out of me, right. Put me in my lane.
[00:23:34] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:35] Speaker A: And let me do that thing, and then I can offer the best resources to you guys and, you know, and it's like being able to know your strengths and stay in your lane and do the thing that you do well. And then when you need help, you ask it the expert. Right. Like, I don't, I don't want to become an expert inside my counseling. I don't. I don't have time.
[00:23:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: You know, but being able to have those working relationships and, you know, keep the main thing, the main thing of, like, we are working together to shut down these dangerous abortion facilities and whether or not you get the credit or I get, I do not care. And that's the other thing is we all go, we do not care.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: Right. Absolutely.
[00:24:15] Speaker A: Like, our names do not need to be on anything. Right.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: And.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: But I think that's a big piece of it. It's just like, the humility and the willingness to say what's just gonna get us there faster.
[00:24:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:27] Speaker A: You're good at that. Cool. You're in tag team. Like, I don't, I don't need to learn that.
[00:24:32] Speaker B: And it's the most beautiful thing from the sidewalk, when you bring someone to the pregnancy center and you let go and know that they're in good hands and you go back and you bring them the next one and the next one. And what I tell sidewalk advocates is like, revel in the role that, you know, again, if you're coming from a faith perspective God allowed you to play or that, you know, I mean, look at. Look at the thing that just happened. You just took, you delivered a woman from the abortion facility to a place of love and safety where she's going to be cared for and she's going to get accurate information about her baby and fetal development, her options and everything that's available to her, because Planned Parenthood does not give her information on rent, groceries, a place to live, insurance. They don't help with that stuff. You know, it's just revel in. Be grateful for that piece, that role that you play in her journey. It is so powerful. It really is so powerful. I don't need to be, I mean, if she wants me to be a part of her journey in an ongoing way, we'll do it like we're there for her. Right. But it's also enough just to get her away from that place of death.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: Right. And so I. We had a conversation with Michael Kinney last week when we were all together at the amazing conference that you guys helped host.
And from a purely practical standpoint, Michael was saying, you know, just from a resource perspective, like, don't waste your resources reinventing the wheel. If someone's doing a thing and they're doing it well, let's work together just from a purely practical standpoint of stewarding the support that we've been given and the people that are sowing into the pro life movement, let's be good stewards of that and not waste resources doing something that someone's already doing really well.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: Right, right. Absolutely. I mean, again, from a faith perspective, it's like the body of Christ. I was hand.
[00:26:25] Speaker A: I was just thinking that. I was like, it's literally like the body.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like the hand. Can't say to the foot, I don't need you. Right? Like, everything has its function, and one is not more important than the other. Remembering that, too. Like, I remember being out on the sidewalk in Memphis, and my, you know, sister from another mother, Nan, my best friend, came with me to the sidewalk one morning, and she said, I'm your prayer support. I'm not the talker. I'm the prayer support. And she had been trained in some of this, so she could have done it, and she really has a spirit to do it, you know? But I just. It's like, that's the role that she wanted and needed to play. And her role was no less important than mine when we turned away two women from the abortion facility, and she said, it was so cool to watch you, like, work that sidewalk and go from driveway to driveway and hand out information. But it also brought me a lot of strength to have Nan there praying for me.
[00:27:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Amazing. And then, you know, our. Our dynamic is when now, you know, you and Jerrel Gotzi were some of the earliest adopters of, like, what was then reprotection now center for client safety. Like, when we came to you and we said, hey, we want to be the place that you guys come if you identify or see, you know, witness the crazy things, because you had said, they're calling me. I don't know what to tell them.
[00:27:46] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:46] Speaker A: Again, like, I'm not an expert here. And you and Jerrel were both like, thank God we have needed this so badly, because what we want to do is allow your sidewalk advocates to be sidewalk advocates. Like, spend your time doing the thing that you do best. Don't lose all this time digging through regulatory code when we can do it so much faster.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: Right.
[00:28:10] Speaker A: And just go, like, hey, hand it off. You get back out there on the sidewalk. You get back to the pregnancy center. Let us take on that burden of the thing that we do well so that you can be great sidewalk advocates and be where you need to be. And then also, I see it very much, too, as you just have another tool in your tool belt of another service to offer them another advocacy resource to say, hey, what happened to you was terrible, and there's something you can do. But really, in the beginning, it was, you and Jerrel were both like, oh, thank God. We can hand off this huge, so true responsibility.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: It was even to the point where we were going to our attorneys at Thomas more society. And it could take a couple things, but that even wasn't their expertise.
[00:28:54] Speaker A: No, it's right. Because we're not attorneys. We don't need. And that's one of the big things we have to distinguish people, is, like, we are not attorneys, and the system that we are working is not a court. We're not taking anyone to court. We're not suing for civil litigation. It's not. Well, we are dealing with some criminal stuff now. But at the time, it was like, attorneys don't take these cases. But that was everyone's like, knee jerk reaction was like, oh, a violation. You take that to an attorney, an attorney is going, I don't know what.
[00:29:24] Speaker B: To do with this.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: I don't know what to do with this.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:25] Speaker A: So then they started calling us. The attorneys are like, hey, we.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Will you take care of this? Yeah. It was a relief because it is so disturbing to stand in front of these facilities and see sometimes what you see or to see something weird and not know what to do with it or where to take it. And, like, the people who go out there, they are just like salt of the earth people, and they have tender hearts, and they're burdened by, hey, I just saw this really egregious thing happen at the abortion facility. In front of the abortion facility, or a woman told me that this is how they treated her inside. Or, you know, and you have red flags, like, going up everywhere, right? And you're thinking, what do I do with this information? Like, I'm out here to get her to the pregnancy center or to win a worker out of the abortion industry, but I don't know where to take information. Like, I mean, I remember standing in front of, like, the Houston women's clinic before it was shut down, thanks be to God. Right, by the overturning of Roe. And I just remembered standing out there and I was like, why is there medical paraphernalia littering the ground of this abortion facility? Then you're hearing stories about how they're lining up women and they're giving them pills, like, one by one, all together. Like, there's certain things that you hear and see as a sidewalk advocate and you don't know where to take it.
[00:30:40] Speaker A: Well, you feel almost like, helpless because you know it's wrong, right? Your gut is saying it's wrong. You're dealing with a woman and her family that they feel wronged, and then everybody kind of goes, what do we do now? It's like, hey, we can now empower you to identify this stuff, document it appropriately in a way that's protected. Because that was the other thing is, like, you guys needed someone to go to that. We said, we're going to protect this relationship between the client and the people serving her. We're not going to take this to the media. We're not going to exploit her story. And being able to say, like, all right, here. Here's how you do it. We see it very much as, like, we are empowering them, right? They're going from a place of like, the heck do I do with all this information? This is so frustrating. I don't know what to do to, like, hey, here are the tools. That's how you walk through it. Now bring it to us and we got it.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: Absolutely no.
[00:31:35] Speaker A: We cannot do that. That unless we have ears and eyes that are doing that know how to counsel well, right. That know how to engage with these women compassionately and lovingly. And we see a significant difference in our ability to get actual information and advocate for these women. When we have sidewalk advocates, right. That are trained by your organization, or we have pregnancy centers that are heartbeat affiliates. Like, we see we get better information and we have an easier time holding the facility accountable. And it just shows that symbiotic relationship of, like, it's not us just being like, hey, I need you to give me this information.
[00:32:24] Speaker B: Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I want everyone to hear me say this. Our ultimate goal when we're in a community is to shut these places down because they're killing children and they're harming, and I've heard you even say, missy, that if they're in this business of killing children and harming women, they're probably not following the law at different points, too.
[00:32:45] Speaker A: Right? They're okay with, like, fudging administrative code. Absolutely. Their moral compass is absolutely off.
[00:32:51] Speaker B: So it's like, we've got to beat these dirty businesses at their own game. And so we're going to love these women and give them resources, and we'll win some of them into the pregnancy center. We're going to minister to these workers and hopefully win them out of the abortion industry, save them from further trauma as well. Again, most of these workers have one or more abortions in their past as well. They need hope and healing, so we're going to rescue them out. But sometimes we're in the middle of this battle, and we're seeing these things. And if we get this information over to you all at center for client Safety, we have hope to shut some of these places down. And as we're in process of winning people away from this. This facility. Right, right. So it's just such a powerful combination of, I mean, love, resources, information, support. Like, really, we're hitting the abortion industry at all ends.
[00:33:41] Speaker A: At all ends. And that's why. That's why we are successful, is because we all come in. Like I said, we do our part, but we're linked together, and we. We move, you know, through the system as we need to.
[00:33:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: Okay, now it's almost like tapping in, like, here's the baton. Now it's your turn. Like, play your thing.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:59] Speaker A: Okay, now I'm. But it's, like, very coordinated.
But that takes intentionality. It takes.
[00:34:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:34:06] Speaker A: A humility.
[00:34:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:08] Speaker A: Takes, you know, willingness to, again, check your ego at the door and just go, I'm here for the bigger picture. I'm here for the ultimate goal, and, you know, we're gonna do whatever we can to make that happen.
[00:34:21] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:34:22] Speaker A: So. So, coming out. So I like to, like. We've been talking a lot about unity within the movement, which I love and is needed, but a big focus of this podcast is. Is not only building bridges with each other, but outside to. To what we're calling the movable middle. The people that, you know, there are very bad actors, and. And they run abortion facilities. They lobby for abortion up until the moment of birth. And then even after a child is born alive, I mean, there are evil people that are profiting off of exploiting women and killing children. 100%.
Most pro choice people are not that right. They are what I have, what we call misplaced compassion. They think they're doing the right thing. They've been told that this is empowering women. They have been. They are genuinely afraid that women. They've bought into the narrative from Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry that if women don't have access to abortion, they will die. Right.
And they're genuinely concerned. Right, right. But what I love about what we do is that regardless of where you stand on abortion, nobody wants dirty facilities with predatory abortionists who are sending women. Right. Like the average person goes, well, obviously. So I've had pro choice friends who identify as pro choice who have told me to their face they were pro choice, say, I'm pro choice, but I understand what you do, and I support what you do.
And I know you had mentioned, like, having similar experiences. And I think that would surprise some people because I think there's such a stigma, not even a stigma or just a missed, it's a stereotype of, like, who is standing outside of abortion facilities. Right.
[00:36:20] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:36:20] Speaker A: So that, that is so extreme. Right. But that's not the case because of how you've built psych advocates. So talk a little bit about that.
[00:36:30] Speaker B: Right. No, I think when people imagine people going to an abortion facility, they're imagining people who are aggressive and angry and ugly and they have bullhorns. And, you know, I don't mean the put it this way, but ugly baby photos, you know, and it's just, you know, a chaos and a circus in front of the abortion facility. And to be fair, are there places around the country where that's true?
[00:36:54] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: Yes, we do. We do see that. But sidewalk advocates for life was created to be like, in a sense, the opposite of that. Love and peace and resources, information support, connections, you know, all the, all the good things, people skills. We put people skills in front of the abortion facility. So I'll talk about two quick experiences I recently had where I had people really on the other side of the political spectrum say to me, hey, I kind of love what you do, writer. I respect it. So I remember my hairdresser who, I mean, she told me flat out, I'm a democratic socialist. I voted for Bernie Sanders almost every election. And so I still remember, you know, she kind of generally knew what I did that I quote unquote, ran a nonprofit that helped women in crisis pregnancies. Well, this other lady was getting her hair done, and I'm like, baking, you know, like, I'm getting my highlights baked in and stuff while the other lady's getting her hair cut. So this lady says, you know, what do you do? So I gave her the line, oh, I help women in crisis pregnancies. I'm an attorney that runs a nonprofit. And she goes, awesome. How do you do that? And I was like, oh, here we go. Here we go.
I'm like, my hairdresser is about to have scissors behind my head. You know, it's always a really delicate.
[00:38:05] Speaker A: Dance, just so you know, if you don't work in the pro life movement.
[00:38:08] Speaker B: Right.
[00:38:08] Speaker A: It's always a really delicate dance when people ask you what you do because you have to make a decision in the moment.
[00:38:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:14] Speaker A: Do I want to argue with somebody? Do I want to be. Do I want to feel awkward? Do I want. So sometimes, you know, if I'm sitting on an airplane, I'd be next to somebody for 5 hours.
[00:38:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:38:24] Speaker A: Give them. I advocate for women who have negative medical experiences.
[00:38:28] Speaker B: There you go.
[00:38:28] Speaker A: You know, like, there's softball for sometimes.
[00:38:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:31] Speaker A: I don't want to deal with this. Right. And we have to think about that, whether hair. My hairdresser did not know what I did for the first, like, two years.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:40] Speaker A: I saw her come to find out. She's this beautiful catholic woman who has done 40 days for life.
[00:38:46] Speaker B: Oh, that's so funny. What are the chances?
[00:38:49] Speaker A: I was like, georgia, how did I not know this about you? I was like, I never tell people what I do because I don't want you to, like, yeah, stop seeing me as a client. So I get it. I feel the tension.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: Well. And I want to be clear. I'm not at all embarrassed by what I do. Embarrassed at all. Like, we'll give people the whole kit and caboodle, but, like, you know, you don't.
[00:39:10] Speaker A: I mean, sometimes I'm like, I just don't want to fight with.
[00:39:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're about, she's. She could give me purple hair, and I don't know how this is gonna go. I gotta sit in her chair for 30 more minutes, you know? So anyways, and you're. You want to win people over. You want them to understand what. What you do, and you also don't want people to get the wrong impression.
[00:39:27] Speaker A: Yes. Or up front, like, get to know me first.
[00:39:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:30] Speaker A: Once you like me, I'm gonna tell you. Absolutely.
[00:39:32] Speaker B: Right, right. So I said, well, there's no way to softball the rest of this. Right. You're like, I train people to go to abortion facilities and offer women loving, life affirming alternatives, and we refer them to pregnancy centers. We help them with resources, you know? And so the woman in the chair, because I'm in suburbia, Texas, so she's like, that is so great. And I held my breath, and I still remember my hairdresser looking at me, and she goes, that's really great, Laurent. And I was like, really? Like, I didn't expect that from her. And so she said, you're giving them a real choice. And I said, exactly.
[00:40:08] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:40:08] Speaker B: Because, I mean, Planned Parenthood's own statistics from their latest annual report, it says 97% of women walking in, pregnant women walking into planned Parenthood get an abortion. 97%.
[00:40:21] Speaker A: Right.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: So parenting, adoption, where is that on the table? If you're purporting to give women all three of their choices, you're a pro choice.
[00:40:28] Speaker A: Yeah. You have to give all the choices.
[00:40:30] Speaker B: Absolutely. Should. I mean, at least from their point of view, why isn't, why aren't those more equal? 97% are getting abortions. When they walk through your doors. You can't tell me there's not a sales pitch there. They don't make money off of parenting.
[00:40:44] Speaker A: Yet because there is no money to be made if they refer for an adoption or if they, because they don't offer prenatal services. Just FYI, Planned Parenthood does not offer prenatal services.
[00:40:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:56] Speaker A: They have to go elsewhere. And so, you know, we have, we, the pro life movement has for a long time touted this. Like, guys, like, Planned Parenthood is in this for the money.
[00:41:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:41:07] Speaker A: And it, and I know people that are kind of in the middle will be like, oh, that's hyperbole. Like, that's so extreme. But then when you look at the data, again, Planned Parenthood's own record saying, if you are a pregnant woman walking into Planned Parenthood, you are 97% likely to have an abortion.
[00:41:23] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:41:24] Speaker A: That should be alarming.
Alarming to anybody. Again, regardless of where you stand on abortion, for a pro choice organization to be so wildly imbalanced. Right. And I remember when, after Cecile Richards retired or moved away from the organization, they hired a physician.
I can't remember.
[00:41:51] Speaker B: Doctor. When.
[00:41:52] Speaker A: Doctor Nguyen. Leanna Nguyen. Yes. And she was phenomenal.
[00:41:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:58] Speaker A: And she wanted to take Planned Parenthood, the records came out later. She wanted to take Planned Parenthood into a more holistic women's health organization.
[00:42:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:09] Speaker A: And she was fired.
[00:42:10] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:42:11] Speaker A: Because she did not focus enough on abortion. And this is based on internal documents that came out after she was fired. And, and I remember there was a student at the time, actually ran into her at the airport and walked up to her and started talking. And she was so gracious and was so kind and was like, yes. Like, we need everybody. Like, was very, if we want to, if we want to really serve women.
[00:42:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:36] Speaker A: We need to offer all these things.
[00:42:38] Speaker B: Right.
[00:42:38] Speaker A: Planned parenthood fires her within a few months. Like, that should be telling that this is not about choice. And that's where I go, let's keep the bad guys. The bad guys.
[00:42:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: Right. Like, there are people that we. The people that we are holding accountable, the people that we are researching, they have criminal histories.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: They commit fraud. Like, they are convicted felons. Like, many of the people, the abortionists and the abortion business owners are convicted felons. Like, they are not interested in empowering women.
[00:43:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:14] Speaker A: Right. There is. They're not interested. There's evidence now of, or it's commonly known now in the human trafficking, like rescue world that human traffickers take women to abortion. Abortion facilities cover up crime.
[00:43:29] Speaker B: Yep. Yep.
[00:43:30] Speaker A: That. That is not a trike. Anybody in the right mind would go, that's not a choice.
[00:43:36] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think one of the biggest testimonials we have is really from those who worked inside the abortion industry and really have blown the whistle on what actually goes on. And the stories would blow your mind, you know, and then there were none. Abortion worker ministry has documented many of these. But the idea here is that there is. I mean, I can say this. I have stood in front of numerous abortion facilities in 20 years of doing this. Right? I've been all over the country. I've talked to women going in and out. I've interfaced with thousands of women with dozens of abortion workers. And what I can tell you is, this is not an empowering choice. These are not, like, reputable medical facilities.
These are not places where people are finding their rights and finding their joy and their freedom.
These facilities are where brokenness upon brokenness is happening. And the stories that you hear, the human stories that you heard from the women that are servicing these facilities, those who work inside, and then what's actually going on? Like, in off hours. So we had an abortion facility that closed in Charlotte, North Carolina, and I still remember. So the manager was one out of the abortion industry she's now with. And then there were none. And she. The stories that she told would make your hair stand on the back of your neck, you know, about how the owner had a gun, and she would sleep at night inside the facility, and that in the middle of the night, some of the workers that sometimes slept there, too, would hear crying children, you know, in the middle of. I mean, this sounds crazy, right? But these. This is. That's not the first time I've heard that story like that exact one. Even with the gun and everything, people getting paranoid and freaked out and dirty and awful things happening and weird things happening in a products of conception lab. And, you know, this is a really sick, demonic industry. And I want people to understand, like, we're not some wacko, you know, pro lifers that go to the sidewalk and, you know, we're. We're human beings that are moms and dads and businessmen and business women who go to the sidewalk and they just want to make the difference, make a difference in the lives of those in crisis. We love children. We love mothers. We love families, you know, but this stuff that we are blowing the whistle on, this is real stuff. This is happening every single day. I've seen it with my own eyes. I've experienced it. And I just want people out there that if they consider themselves moderate or pro choice, to understand. Like, if you care about humanity, you have to care what's going on inside these facilities.
[00:46:13] Speaker A: And I tell people because, like, you know, a lot of my story where I have. I've moved on a lot of issues. So I was traditionally, grew up very religious, very conservative. Now I am not. And, yeah, and I'm.
My life is beautiful and fulfilled and. But I've changed my views on a lot of things and consider myself more left. But, yeah, when Dobbs overturned roe, I posted on my personal instagram and I said, I've changed my view on a lot of things.
[00:46:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:45] Speaker A: Abortion is not one of them.
[00:46:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:47] Speaker A: Because I've seen too much.
[00:46:48] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:46:49] Speaker A: I've seen too much.
[00:46:50] Speaker B: We know too much.
[00:46:50] Speaker A: We know too much. The people that we are investigating are the scum of the earth that are running these atrocious facilities. I mean, I'm like abortionists that have a history of sexual violence against children.
You know, having a pediatric ob Gyn license.
[00:47:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:14] Speaker A: That should make our mouths drop. I mean, it is. It is so.
It has become what we talk about, the wild, wild west, because it's so politicized. Regulators do not want to get involved. The abortion industry has done such a good job at putting this, like, like, wall around this medical world and the stuff, the bad actors that take advantage of that. Like, this is not hyperbole and this is not exaggeration. And what the abortion industry wants to say is that you're exaggerating. These are the exceptions. These are the outliers. It's not. No, it's not. We are getting cases every single day. And I know your psych advocates are talking to women every single day. And the stories that we are hearing all across the nation at most facilities are, these places are dirty.
The staff are rude. They're shuttling them in and out like cattle. They're putting women in a room in groups of five or ten and just handing out the pills by, like, that is not a private decision between a woman and her doctor.
[00:48:24] Speaker B: And they're doing it because they can make more money.
[00:48:26] Speaker A: They can go in and out.
[00:48:28] Speaker B: That's so sick to me is it's at any cost. Like, I know these former workers tell us that, you know, inside some of their facilities that they would line women up from room to room to room, and they got a surgical abortion down to ten minutes. They could get her out, in and out.
[00:48:43] Speaker A: Well, there was Klopper in Illinois. He had like a game with himself, allegedly. This was from a, another, the oBGyN that kept getting called into the emergency room to consult on the, his botched abortions. Yeah, because he was saying, like, he was basically seeing how fast he could do them.
[00:49:01] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, exactly.
We just need to understand, like, I'm an attorney, I saw it on the legal end where we almost enshrined abortion as a super right in the law.
[00:49:12] Speaker A: There's an entitlement. Yeah.
[00:49:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And then, and then in practice, day to day, these workers saying that these women were treated like cattle, like dollar signs. And they, they said that the saddest place on earth was the recovery room at an abortion facility. They said that, you know, they would sit women down in a chair and they, you know, they have to take their blood pressure and check their vitals and everything. And almost everybody was crying. You know, nobody was like, yeah, that.
[00:49:36] Speaker A: Was if they were actually checking their vitals. That was the other thing we're hearing a lot is they're not checking their vitals after that.
[00:49:42] Speaker B: You're supposed to do it. And we would watch women get released from the abortion facility, I mean, again, at multiple facilities, and they'd be in a daze and they're supposed to drive. They didn't bring anybody with them, or they threw up on the sidewalk or you.
[00:49:54] Speaker A: Basic anesthesia. My best friend is a cRna, and I tell her some of these stories. She works at an outpatient ambulatory surgical center.
[00:50:03] Speaker B: Right.
[00:50:03] Speaker A: So it's very similar. And I tell her some of these stories, and she's like, what? I mean, just cannot believe she was, like, in any other field, immediate reason. Yeah, you'd be done. And it's like there's this entitlement bubble, and bad actors take advantage of. That's right. And they hide. They almost, I say at least they kind of hide there because they know that nobody's going to regulate them. So it's like they probably can't work anywhere else because of their criminal history, their medical malpractice, their medical disciplinary history. A lot of them have. I'm just off the top of my head the number of cases we have right now. One of them was convicted of Medicaid fraud. One of them was convicted of child abuse.
One was lost her medical license in multiple states. I mean, these are not like, top of their class. Went to Harvard medical School.
[00:51:01] Speaker B: Right. You usually hear the opposite, that they were at the bottom of their class. They didn't know how they were going to make money, and so they went into the abortion industry. That I know that was the case with the. With the so called doctors in Dallas before Roe was overturned. We knew these stories. Right. Yeah.
[00:51:15] Speaker A: So that's where I really. I'm trying to almost, like, say, extend an olive branch, you know, and go, guys, like, I know that the pro life movement, we maybe haven't done the best job at everything. Right? Yeah, that's fine. However, it doesn't mean that the things that we are saying are not true.
[00:51:42] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:51:43] Speaker A: And if you can just, like, turn the volume down and quiet all of the rhetoric and the politics and the misinformation and just look at the facts.
[00:51:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:58] Speaker A: This is a crisis. This is a.
Not even just abortion on its. At its core. But I. This industry as a whole and the way that women are treated and harmed and in the name of empowering women.
[00:52:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: You're actually creating very unsafe situations for them. And that is a thing that we have to show. We have to do it in a way that the people that are soft, that are trying to figure this out can. Can access it, can. Can digest it, can hear it. Right. Because if we just come at it like abortion is murder, they're gonna shut down. Shut down.
[00:52:47] Speaker B: So I had this thought the other day. Like, this actually came to me when I was in a moment of prayer. And what I thought about is, we're going to resolve this when we're willing to see humanity on both sides of this issue.
[00:53:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:53:01] Speaker B: You know, so. And this is hard. This is hard because abortion, and rightly so, gets. Gets us going, right. Because we have a life at stake and, you know, a mother's life at stake.
[00:53:12] Speaker A: And it's a highly contentious. I'm guessing you did not let. Oh, it's okay. You did not listen to my first episode of why I started this podcast. I said almost those exact words.
I said, we have. We've gotten so reductive on both ends. We've reduced people to their views on abortion.
[00:53:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:53:29] Speaker A: And then we can't have conversations because we've lost our humanity. We are dealing with real people that there's a reason why they've.
[00:53:35] Speaker B: Right. Right.
[00:53:36] Speaker A: Whether they're scared, whether they've had personal experience, whether they're just misinformed. Like, these are human beings that are just trying. Most of them are not evil.
[00:53:45] Speaker B: They're trying to figure stuff out. And, you know, one of my favorite people, Kelly Lester, she's a former abortion worker. She's four abortions in her past. She actually was a drug dealer at one point, you know, since come to Christ and left all that behind. But one of the things that she said that I think is so profound is that quite often, abortion is a trauma response.
[00:54:03] Speaker A: Yes. Oh, 100%.
[00:54:04] Speaker B: And it creates more trauma.
[00:54:06] Speaker A: It's a symptom of a bigger problem. And that's what I keep going back to, is that it's the symptom of a bigger problem that we have told sold women the lie that in order to deal with socioeconomic oppression, with abusive relationships, with even medical concerns, that abortion is the solution. And I go, we need to take 50 steps back and deal with poverty, deal with domestic violence, and put men who sexually assault women in jail for the rest of their lives. Deal with the systemic issue of a culture that doesn't honor and respect women.
[00:54:50] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. I, you know, I think, like, if it really goes to the sidewalk and then beyond. Right. If we can stand on that sidewalk and we can see the humanity of that woman walking in there, we can see the humanity of the worker who works inside the industry, that they're in pain, too. If we can look to the other side of the aisle and see the pro choice person that just desperately wants to, quote unquote, help women or has had an experience in their past. Right. If we can begin to see humanity on all sides of this issue, I think we're going to get so much further. And that doesn't mean leaving behind what we know to be good. Right. And true. Because the other thing, ironically, that we're saying to the world is also, don't ignore the humanity of the life in the womb, right. We're just wanting. All we're doing is we're crying out and we're saying, hey, just don't forget about this class of people, this group of human beings, right?
[00:55:42] Speaker A: We can't get there until we turn the volume down right around everything else. And that's where I think we miss.
[00:55:48] Speaker B: See each other and see each other. Yeah.
[00:55:51] Speaker A: And talk about, okay, why? And it's usually because they're scared or, you know, it's like, well, I don't want a woman who's been raped to half, you know, because they're, in their mind, it's like, oh, carrying a pregnancy to term after you've been raped is horrifying. Yes, it is horrifying. It absolutely is horrifying. And they're coming from a genuine, I've talked to so many students when I was at student life where that was really, they were just like, they're just so afraid of women being further harmed. And I was like, you're on the right track.
[00:56:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:56:24] Speaker A: And I would say something like, who said, who decided that abortion was that was the best option for them?
[00:56:30] Speaker B: Well, and I have the sidewalk component of that. To hear women say that the abortion felt like a second rate.
[00:56:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Right.
[00:56:38] Speaker B: You know, so again, let's tell, we need to tell these human stories because these women in these situations are being used as, I think, political fodder a lot of times to justify, of course, abortion in the 98% of other cases. Right. 99% of other cases. But at the end of the day, if we fail to see the humanity of that mother and also that child. Right. And that's all that we're asking for, is like, let's not just say we're going to relegate this life to medical waste, you know? And then meanwhile, why is that person pro abortion or pro choice?
[00:57:12] Speaker A: Right.
[00:57:12] Speaker B: What is your story? What brought you here at this particular point in history? And can we have a conversation around it without, you know, labeling people or making accusations? I know I get a lot further on the sidewalk when I recognize myself as an imperfect person that's just trying to figure things out as well. And I meet another hurting soul on the sidewalk and say, how can I help you? You know, what is it that you need? What is it that brings you here today? Because I truly believe, and I've seen with my own eyes and I felt with my own heart, like, she doesn't want to be there. She doesn't want to be there. She just wants. She's. It's a cry. Abortion is a cry for help, really.
[00:57:51] Speaker A: Right.
[00:57:54] Speaker B: That needs help. Yeah.
[00:57:56] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. And this is where I go. Okay, people. Hey, everyone. People, if you're pro choice listening to this.
[00:58:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:02] Speaker A: I hope there are some.
[00:58:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:04] Speaker A: Like, extend the same courtesy back, because I know.
[00:58:08] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:58:08] Speaker A: I. Because I. One of the reasons, like, going back to what I was saying earlier, the reason I'm hesitant to tell people what I do is because there's so many negative stereotypes that I get immediately put in this box that I must be a fundamentalist christian conservative who thinks women should stay at home, you know, like.
[00:58:28] Speaker B: Barefoot in the kitchen making.
[00:58:29] Speaker A: And I go, hey, right. I'm like, hey, that's actually. And people are shocked to find out that I'm not that right. Like, extend the olive branch the other way and go find out why people are pro life.
[00:58:42] Speaker B: That's exactly right. And what I love is that, you know, here I am, I'm an attorney, and for the most part, I'm pulled together, and I'm a bubbly blonde, and I have three rescue dogs, and I go to abortion facilities.
[00:58:56] Speaker A: I am more than my view on abortion.
[00:58:58] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. And I just love turning that whole on its head. And one of my favorite questions that we get on the sidewalk after we help a woman and we refer her next door to the pregnancy center. There's so many times where women have looked at us and said, by the way, where are the protesters they told me about? Where are the protesters they told me about? And I quietly laugh to myself, and I say, you know, I don't know. I don't know. That's.
[00:59:23] Speaker A: I get a lot when I used to do stuff on campus. Wow, you're the nicest pro lifer I've ever met. And I'm like, like, how do I.
[00:59:32] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:59:33] Speaker A: But they're assuming that I'm gonna be this, like, hateful person ranting, and then I'm like, you know, like, just like, let's talk. You know, they're like, you're so nice. And I'm like, I think it's just because I'm being human.
[00:59:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:59:48] Speaker A: I'm figuring this out, too.
[00:59:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:59:50] Speaker A: Well, you can obviously see why Lauren and I have such a deep friendship and get along so well, because I think we have both created organizations that are filling gaps, but specifically, like, addressing these really fundamental practices of, like, and wanting to change how pro life advocates are approaching this issue and building bridges and reaching across and reaching people where they are. And, I mean, I love psych advocates. You know, like I said, lauren's one of my favorite people in the movement, and, you know, I think we are. My conversation with Michael Kinney was very similar of, like, as a movement, we have to keep going this direction, and really, if we are going to be successful in a pro America where everybody is. Even the volumes turned up even louder, and everybody's even more afraid.
The abortion industry is taking advantage of that fear, and just pushing through these wild constitutional amendments and referendums that deregulate abortion in their state. We're going, that's not it either.
It's not. Don't overcorrect here because you're afraid. We have to be more willing to take these approaches where we are meeting people, where they are having thoughtful, empathetic, loving conversations. Because I think that's where we're going to see change.
[01:01:25] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's the only. Honestly, I think it's the only way. It's the only way. And it doesn't mean, again, that we check our beliefs at the door that there isn't. There aren't protections still needed in law and all those things. Right. But around that, can we be having conversations like this and really understanding the other person and what brought them to the table to have the discussion?
[01:01:47] Speaker A: Yeah. So. Well, let's end on. What I like to do at the very end is when you're not being a pro life hero.
[01:01:55] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[01:01:57] Speaker A: Because again, we are more than our views on abortion.
[01:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:02:00] Speaker A: So we have a segment called off the clock. So when you're not being a pro life hero and equipping people to be amazing sidewalk advocates, like, I know the answer to this, but I'll let you share. What is your favorite hobby?
[01:02:15] Speaker B: Oh, it's being with my rescue dogs. Yeah. I joke that I rescue humans and dogs.
[01:02:20] Speaker A: I mean, that's what I said. I was at an emergency vet last week with a sick cat that I brought in from outside. Literally, she was so sick, I wrapped her up in a towel and brought her inside. And I was like, I just gotten home from the national Celebrate life Conference. My team was coming in town, so busy, and I was like, I guess we're gonna be working from an emergency vet.
I was like, I'm saving animals and I'm saving babies.
[01:02:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:02:46] Speaker A: You know?
[01:02:47] Speaker B: Yep. No, I have such a tender heart for dogs. I think that they are like walking unconditional love. Like, if I can just be more like my dog, I would be so much more awesome.
[01:02:57] Speaker A: I know. They're just so. So.
[01:02:59] Speaker B: Your dogs are porters, dunkle and barley. They're all mutts. But we're nerds. And we did dog DNA tests on all of them.
Yeah. So Amazon has this thing. They have all these services, but one of them is called, like, wisdom panel and.
[01:03:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:03:14] Speaker B: Swabs. Yes, swab the inside.
[01:03:15] Speaker A: We did doggy.
There's like, embark. But there's like, a doggy DNA. Yeah, there's a bunch now.
[01:03:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And so it's really kind of crazy, because in three weeks, they email you, like, your dog's family tree.
[01:03:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:03:28] Speaker B: And so we all took, we took bets with our friends on, like, what each of the dogs would be. And so I've got my 85 pounder, who's like, Aussie lab, husky border collie mix. Then I've got a pit mix.
[01:03:40] Speaker A: That's a smart dog.
[01:03:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, he gets so excited. He runs into walls. He's like, he. I call him my spirit animal because he's, like the outgoing alpha. Yeah.
[01:03:50] Speaker A: Which just makes sense with me.
[01:03:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Dunkle is my snuggle bug. He's my, he's my pita. Yes. He's a 75 pounder.
[01:03:58] Speaker A: And then I hit with what?
[01:04:00] Speaker B: Pit lab and husky, actually. No, no, no, not husky. It was. It was border collie. So he had, like, three of Porter's breeds, but because of the pit. And, yeah, he genetically went another direction. Right. He's got, like, this structured body. And the fun thing about him is if you're not careful, he will french kiss you. Like, he will just kind of get up in your face, and we have to turn our heads pretty. Yes. So more than you ever want to know about Duncle. And then there's Barley, who is our Bassett mix. So she. I thought she was going to be Corgi, German shepherd. She's got, like, a shepherd head and a long body and little stubby drumstick legs.
And she ended up being Bassett lab and Shelty, like, lassie doll. Yeah.
[01:04:45] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah, those are fascinating mixes.
[01:04:48] Speaker B: So she's like the stubborn princess of the pack. Porter's the alpha. And I still remember when we brought Barley in the first or second night, there was something where, yeah, we had dished out their food, and she had food aggression issues that we didn't know about. So she eats her food, and then she goes over to Porter's bowl, right? So this, like, 40 pounder goes to the 85 pounder. She's like, I want your food, too, buddy. I'm going to be the alpha. Right? And she started to, like, eat his food. And, yeah, he bit her down, like, super fast. He jumped in and he's like, check it, sister. Like, I am the alpha, you know? And I still remember, like, her yelping and, like, I guess he nipped at her foot or something, and they were done. That was it. That was the pack lineup. So Porter is in charge. Yeah. Step off, princess.
[01:05:39] Speaker A: This is my. She's probably never tried to eat his food again.
[01:05:41] Speaker B: No, she does. She leaves him alone and she tries to bully dunkle and we can't, we can't figure out who's second and third.
[01:05:46] Speaker A: I have a very, I also have a rescue dog. So she's boxer, golden retriever, greyhound, and lab named Mary Poppins. And she doesn't have an aggressive alpha bone in her body. She is the most just submissive. She's 90 pounds of just sweet. Submissive has never felt like even when dogs are aggressive towards her, she's like, that dog plays weird. Like just so kind and just so you guys understand how kind and sweet and gentle Lauren's heart is, it is around 4 July when we're recording. There are fireworks. My dog is very scared of fireworks. And she was curled up in Lauren's bed last night in her thunder jacket and her earmuffs and was having a hard time settling. So Laurent played the rosary and my dog, appropriately named Mary, became so calm and survived fireworks because Lauren just snuggled with her and prayed the rosary.
[01:06:51] Speaker B: So Missy is probably whatever denomination she is and her dog is Catholic.
[01:06:57] Speaker A: We forget, yes, my dog is married. My cat is Francis. I'm well on my way. I'm well, if I did join a church, it would probably be the catholic church. Yeah.
So, yeah, you can see why we enjoy each other's company so much. Because we love serving women, empowering women, saving them from the experience of abortion, doing it in a way that's kind and bridge building. But then also, so when we're not doing that, we're going to be saving animals off the literal street.
[01:07:31] Speaker B: I'm telling you. I'm telling you. Yeah. The true sidewalk advocates, right?
Humans and animals and beyond.
[01:07:38] Speaker A: I'm still advocating for Porter, the pro life dog.
[01:07:43] Speaker B: I'm telling you, that's going to be another episode in the future. I'm going to test this at some point because I'm telling you, you can break the ice with anybody with a dog. You know, like if you go to the dog park, people walk up to you and tell you their life story, right? It only happens at breweries in the dog park. Right. So. And I'm not going to bring beer out to the sidewalk anytime soon. Dogs.
[01:08:04] Speaker A: Dogs first.
[01:08:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:08:06] Speaker A: Wow. Amazing. Well, if you want to learn more about psych advocates for life, you can go to sighwalk advocates.org and share your socials. Where can they find out more about your work?
[01:08:16] Speaker B: Yeah, just, I mean, we're on all the major social media platforms, so just search for sidewalk advocates for life. If you go to our website, you can get on our listserv. And all that. And then we'll look forward to doing another celebrate life weekend conference gala rally next year in 2025. So it'll be always around the Dobbs anniversary, the decision that overturned Roe versus Wade. So we hope people will make time to hang out with us in Washington, DC.
[01:08:40] Speaker A: And if you want to see really cute videos of dogs, also.
[01:08:45] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:08:45] Speaker A: Lauren Musica.
[01:08:46] Speaker B: Yeah, so my Instagram. Lauren R. Musica, also on Facebook under the same. And I do once in a while. Yes. Post a dog video. Actually, my Instagram Stories, it's like pro life dog. Pro life dog pro life. Yeah.
[01:09:01] Speaker A: As it should be.
[01:09:02] Speaker B: Yes. I post the cutest dog videos on Instagram Stories.
[01:09:06] Speaker A: My business account has a picture of the cat I just rescued. So absolutely.
All right. Thank you so much for joining us. I am missy Martina Stone. You can find out more about the amazing work of center for Client
[email protected] and don't forget, next time you need some coffee, use the link in our show notes. We get 10% of any coffee purchase through seven weeks coffee. Using that link, you can find out more about us at center for Client Safety on Social or center for clientsafety.org dot. See you next time.
