Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: This is Missy Martinez Stone, and you're listening to the centered podcast where we have unifying conversations on the divisive subject of abortion.
Just a quick note before we get started that this episode was recorded live at the National Celebrate Life Conference. So if you hear a little noise in the background or the audio sounds different, that's why. But the content is still just as amazing, so I hope you enjoy it. This is Missy Martinez Stone, and you're listening to the centered podcast where we have unifying conversations on the divisive subject of abortion.
Before we begin, I want to provide a content warning. Today's episode discusses topics related to sexual exploitation and human trafficking, which may be sensitive or triggering for some listeners.
Hello, and welcome to the centered podcast. I'm your host, Missy Martinez Stone. And today we have Demetria Gilliam Williams, the executive director of Life 107. Demetria holds a master's degree in christian ministry, and since 2019, she has dedicated her life to eliminating sexual exploitation and supporting survivors in their healing. Her passion is to fight the sex trade industry, and she believes in the power of grace and compassion and healing the mind, body, and spirit of trafficking survivors. Demetria, thank you so much for being here.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thanks for allowing me to celebrate life with you guys this weekend.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: So we first met last year, and it was a really impactful experience for me because I was scheduled to speak at the National Sidewalk Advocates conference and had been assigned to moderate and speak on a panel with you and two other incredible women about the nefarious relationship between the abortion industry and the sex trafficking industry. And to prepare for the conference, the organizer had us all on the Zoom call to discuss the content and what each of us were going to bring to the presentation. And, you know, Lauren Mizika and I, we thought we came into this conversation like, we're well informed. You know, we. We are well read women, and we so quickly realized that we had so much to learn about sex trafficking. And it was that moment, listening to the three of y'all, where I realized, like, this is my time to be a student. I need to be quiet, and I need to listen. And a lot of the listeners on this podcast are pro life advocates. They're actively engaged in the pro life movement, and it's really easy to become, like, narrowly focused and seek only information directly related to your work, especially in the justice world. So I wanna start with some basic information to set the stage for our conversation. Can you give us an overview of what is sex trafficking? What is human trafficking? How big is this industry? Who's typically targeted and any other important information to kinda just inform us so we know going into this conversation what we're really dealing with.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: So trafficking is defined by the Trafficking Victims Protection act that was solidified in 2000, and we still live under that jurisdiction. That really mandates trafficking as a crime. And it is at its base, it is the exchange of another person for a sex act for anything of value.
Usually that is done through force, fraud, or coercion, someone behind the scenes pulling the strings. But we do not have to prove those three things for a minor. So it's interesting.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: Okay, so the three things are forced. What do you say?
[00:04:05] Speaker B: Forced fraud or coercion.
[00:04:06] Speaker A: Forced fraud or coercion.
[00:04:08] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. And so we usually see those three at play to get people into trafficking situations and keep them. But the good news is that our government says if someone is under 18, they don't have the capacity to make an informed decision about trading. And so if they are exchanging commercial sex for anything of value, then they are considered a traffic victim.
[00:04:30] Speaker A: And not to minimize, but it's almost as simple as, like, an 18 year old can't enter into a contract like you legally can't, you know, but, you know, so it's like they're saying, hey, you can't even consent to this. You can't agree to this because you're a minor.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:46] Speaker A: And so you just have to show that there is some ill intent on the.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: Right, absolutely.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: You got it.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: And people can be trafficked over 18. Absolutely. And we do see this often constitute trafficking, though. We have to be able to prove that there's someone in the picture that is forcing her in some way, frauding her by some type of liar, deception, or coercing her into that action.
[00:05:11] Speaker A: So who are the main targets of the industry?
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Oh, gosh. Marginalized people. People who often. So 95% of the girls in the life. And the reason I use that term is the life is like just the term people use to say they're being prostituted or trafficked. And so 95% of these girls have been abused in their past. So one of the main risk factors that create a vulnerability that a pimp can use to keep her in the life is usually some type of abuse. Abuse just shifts the brain in a way that makes it hard to make really strong decisions. And it also creates that vulnerability where a pimp can actually coerce a little better, they can feed those lies and keep her in that situation.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: And how do they. So if you have somebody that is a marginalized person that's been a victim of abuse. How do they find these women or not even women? So you can even talk about that. It's not just women that are the victim of trafficking, right?
[00:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm glad you say that. So we think it's like maybe 2% boys or male, but I think that's way under reported because of the extra element of shame that they often feel if they being victimized. And we do focus on women because it seems to be the majority.
But yeah, that specific gender seems to be most vulnerable. But I think most of the recruitment used to be in the community before we all kind of went more online. It was people who would scroll, malls, scroll, really hang out in teen focused areas. And what they're going to do is they're going to make observations about her composition, how does she hold herself? What can we notice about who she is and what she might be willing to do, you know, what's going on in the scene. And so they're not going to approach the one who's confident and who's going to quickly put them in place. They're going to approach that one who looks a little bit vulnerable, that there's something she's missing, and then they're going to go in to try to fill that gap.
Although in the past it was more community based where in that way and that now we have seen it move online, so it's harder to get the data. Very good. Predators and pimps are definitely scrolling on social media. So we've seen studies where people have been falsely put out as if they're children and approached multiple times on social media. So every platform is literally doused with groomers. And what they will do is they will notice that profile picture and see, you know, what is she putting in her profile? In her words, you know, what is that gap in pursuing her online? So we are seeing a lot more, I would say, online grooming and recruitment we've ever seen before.
[00:07:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And so this is, we, are we in the millions? Are we in the hundreds of thousands? You know, I know it's hard to. Is there even, like, ballpark?
[00:08:01] Speaker B: I wish I had figures out. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: Like, how big is this? Like, how, how many victims are we, are we talking, like, like, what is the, what are the ballpark numbers for?
Like, when, when, you know, organizations are putting out data or putting out education, they're like, they'll say, you know, so we would say there's been 70 million children aborted since 1973. Like, what are the.
[00:08:26] Speaker B: Okay, our ballpark is nationwide, between 100 and 300,000 who are in domestic minor sex trafficking situations.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: That's just the minor. Yeah.
[00:08:35] Speaker B: Wow. It's just interesting. And so you think how many girls over 18 are still trading and maybe even don't identify as a victim yet?
[00:08:44] Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: Just hard to get data on that because they are seen and known in our community, in all of our communities. But, you know, does she even see herself as a victim at this point?
[00:08:55] Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah. Cause that's difficult. Cause it's like, unless they identify that way, then it's hard to.
Yeah. Like, have to categorize it that way. Yeah.
[00:09:08] Speaker B: Quantify it.
[00:09:09] Speaker A: Right. Because you are basing it on her self actualization of, you know, victimhood, which, you know, has so many layers to it, and it's so complicated.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Switcher.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: So when in your position at life 107, you are serving these victims and survivors. And correct my language if I use the terms incorrectly, but when you're seeing these girls and women who have not, like I said, self actualized, they are the victim, what does rescue look like?
[00:09:44] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So, personally, with our organization, we just kind of veer from the term rescue, because then that makes us. That kind of puts a hero status on us, like savior we don't deserve. And there's a lot of controversy around what that really looks like in the states compared to internationally. So internationally, that rescue effort does look a little more doable and workable in the states. We know that trauma bonding often happens between pimp and victim. And so she. That basically means she is severely afraid of him and at the same time, deeply in love with him creates this bond that's extremely difficult to break and actually very traumatic to break. So the assumption of us going in and removing her from a situation that we don't know she's ready to leave is just really myth. We always say that the only heroes in these stories are the girls who pull themselves up and out of this and recover. And so we leave that in their court, and if they are. So a lot of times we talk about the stages of change, and stages of change really help us see where somebody is in that. You know, some people who are being victimized are still in that pre contemplation stage. They don't know it. Then they're in that contemplation stage where it's like, wow, this doesn't feel right. This is not enjoyable anymore. This is not. And as if it was ever enjoyable. What I mean by that is things are getting worse, and she begins to see that this is not where she wants to be. And then they move into this, you know, the action phase and the relapse. Unfortunately, we know as part of the story, but when she pulls up and out, it's usually because she's grown exhausted with the life. And so we leave that job to her. What we can do as bystanders is be able to create relationships with these people who are seeable and knowable in our community, know what it looks like, and then create relationships that are built on trust and compassion. And then when she is asking for a need that we meet, that need what. Whatever that looks like outside of what we want for her. What does she want for her?
[00:11:55] Speaker A: Are these like, tangible resources? Are these.
Is this, you know, therapy is like what? So hypothetically, a girl is exhausted and she reaches out, you know, what are the things that you are offering? You know, how are you meeting those needs?
[00:12:14] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. So it does look like shelter. Oftentimes it's a detox and substance use rehab, because the part of the life is to handle what they're having to endure. There's a lot of drug and alcohol use for sure. And so it just becomes part of the thread.
[00:12:29] Speaker A: Well, it's almost like it creates the cycle because it's, you know, if they get them addicted to drugs and then they have to pay for the drugs, and then they pay for the drugs by performing sex acts. It's like the vicious cycle, right?
[00:12:42] Speaker B: Absolutely. So we see a lot of women being pimped by their own drug, and so they're a victim of, I think I've heard this before, a victim of circumstance. Like, that's where they're having to be able to meet their needs. So it's detox, it's shelter. It's any type of management for her life that we can give her this platform that she hasn't had before. Because a lot of these girls have no place to go back home because home is not a good place. And so when they do leave these situations, they're at ground zero. So it could be helping her find a position, helping her have a safe, safe shelter just to rest for a little while, and then building her life back from the ground up with resources and definitely therapy.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: Are there areas, you know, in just thinking United States wise like that are. Have higher rates of trafficking or. No, I've heard the term, like hub, you know? So are there areas that you would say these are like the hot spots?
[00:13:43] Speaker B: Yeah, and I am cautious to say that large cities would be it, because then people only assume this happens in cities that we see, and this is a good place for the convo on how we see trafficking play out. So I would say that boyfriend pimp controlled scenario is more common. In the corporate pimp scenario, which there's a larger pimp with many or multiple girls in a stable. You're going to see that more in a city because there's more action in a city, more events happening, more touching.
[00:14:10] Speaker A: Plays, literally more people.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: Oh, you got it. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's easier to hide that. And so you're also going to see people, pimps who have girls in a stable, which means they're working multiple girls, exploiting multiple girls.
They will move from city to city, and it's usually to follow events or large groups of people.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: That's right. So it's less really city based and more supply and demand. So there's always conversations around, like the Super bowl or the World cup or the Olympics, you know, anywhere that they know large groups are coming to these, you know, designated areas. There's always, you know, I, you know, even just like I said, the Super Bowl, I always see ads and things that are saying, like, awareness, awareness, awareness. Like, this is something that whatever city it's in that year.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:15:02] Speaker A: We need to be aware of.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: You are nailing it. And if you watch high profile events, the uptick, I'm sure, is correlated.
[00:15:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: But then also. And so me being from a smaller area, the mountains of western North Carolina, so a lot of what the rural areas see, and I would say this happens in the cities as well, is what we call familial trafficking. And that is what I call backdoor trafficking, where mom is training kiddo for heroin addiction or dad is training kiddo for extra money. Whatever it is, someone in the family is exploiting the child, and that's usually very young children. And then lastly, the context is survival sex. So we have a large group of people who are experiencing homelessness near Asheville. And I noticed that here in DC, it's really happening across our nation, just large amounts of women who are homeless. And so you think about all the needs that she has, and she's engaging, oftentimes in survival sex to meet those needs.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: Right. Cause this is, in her mind, the only thing she can offer for income.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: You're nailing it. Wow. Absolutely.
[00:16:07] Speaker A: So for those of you wondering why we are talking about sex trafficking on a pro life podcast, unfortunately, there is a really heartbreaking overlap in the work that we both do. And this is what that panel was about that we spoke at the Sidewalk Advocates conference. And the dangerous abortion facilities that the center for Client safety investigates are notoriously known for aiding and abetting sex traffickers. And this may sound hyperbolic, but it's, the reality has been confirmed over and over by experts. And as an expert on that subject, can you explain that relationship between the abortion facilities and the sex trafficking industry?
[00:16:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's chilling because there is such an overlap that there. We know, based on research, that at least 50% of survivors say, yes, I had an abortion while I was being trafficked.
Many of those, at least half say that it was not of their own volition, so they were coerced into this. We also know that girls have multiple abortions, so 30% say they've had more than one. And eventually, this takes a toll on the reproductive health of a woman that when she's able, and she's in a situation where she is able to choose, that she's often not able to. And that is just heartbreaking to consider. A couple reasons that traffickers push that is, that's another mouth to feed. That's another obstacle in their way. And so often girls are coerced into abortion. And recently been thinking about this. It's not just the forced and coerced abortion, also the spontaneous abortion. That's a really good point. Yes. I was reading in research recently, Laura Lederer has a partner, and they have done some amazing research on this. And they discovered that, you know, just the spontaneous abortion that women experience, not even knowing they're pregnant or knowing that they are and experiencing it, extreme abuse and violence from pimps and from johns who are buyers, and then losing babies.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: Because of that, the stress of this issue. Yeah. That's going to impact it. And if there's drug use, if there's, you know, some of it might. Your body literally might even be the survival piece. Like, we can't. Your body's going, we can't have a baby. Yeah. And so that makes perfect sense to me that there would be a higher rate of miscarriage and, you know, spontaneous abortion. But the way that the industry uses the abortion facilities is they are bringing their girls there. And, you know, these abortion facilities tout themselves as, you know, empowering women, giving women the right to choose. And yet they allow these traffickers to bring these victims here. And typically, like, what we have understood is that, like, they are well aware of what is happening, and yet they still do these abortions on these girls, and then they send them right back into these horrific situations. And, you know, when we were on the panel, it was really powerful to hear, you know, you and the other two leaders talk about, you know, the repeat customers, like the woman that's kind of in charge of the girls, like bringing in groups of them. Like, it's very obvious what's happening here, you know, in the abortion industry or the abortion facility not stepping in and offering any kind of help. Right. So they, they use this as a way to keep these girls in the cycle. And you would, you would think that the message of the pro abortion movement, the pro choice people who say like, this is a woman's choice, is that that would carry over.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:19:56] Speaker A: So why doesn't it?
[00:19:57] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Makes sense. Yeah. When we come to the table and we, I think this is a place where, and I read this in research, Laura in her research mentions this should be a place where all of us come to the table. Pro choice, pro life. That is not choice. Yes, and absolutely. That makes sense. I think it comes down to advertisement and you often hear abortion clinics saying no questions asked. So that's the problem. These girls are sitting in front of clinicians and providers and no one's asking questions about her situation. And that's the danger of it. And then I know that the advertisement that abortion clinics put out are really a catch all. Like, who else can we grab in this, in this effort? I know I saw the back of a brochure one time or online, I was doing some research on discord relation and it mentioned it was on the back bottom, it said conveniently located off of interstate. And what other target population are you reaching than people in emergent situations and often being victimized in some way. So, yeah, the advertisement there is.
[00:21:04] Speaker A: It's very intentional. Yeah. Yeah. So like from a regulatory perspective, I think of things like informed consent.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:11] Speaker A: Because consent given under duress is invalid. So that that is a standard medical, you know, understanding that the definition of informed consent is that you have to be of sound mind and if you are under duress, it is invalid. And that's not just for trafficking, that's for women that are in domestic violence, that's minors that are being forced to have abortions by their parents. Absolutely. But they're, you know, the idea of informed consent is meant to be, and this is, again, just medical anything. This isn't just about abortion, is that you have to make these decisions of your own free will, of your own sound mind, and that is removed completely in these situations. Or mandatory reporting if the girls being brought are below the age of consent, are abortion facilities reporting that to child protective services? These are not abortion specific regulations, but the standards for every medical practitioner that they have to follow to protect vulnerable women and children from abuse.
If these abortion facilities are touting your body, your choice, that's in direct conflict, you know, with this practice. And, you know, what we. What I heard you guys say on the panel was like, how do you justify this? It really comes down to the money. Like, if this is a. If you have a repeat customer, that is a lot of money, and if they have multiple victims that they are bringing, you know, so. And I don't want to assume that people are that evil, but, you know, it would you say, like, that's probably a big driver, the money that they're getting from.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: Oh, sure, yeah. And we, like, turn to scripture here. And the root of all evil is the love of money. And that greed drives the entire industry, not just the fortune side, but the greed of pimps and predators who benefit from someone's exploitation. So. Absolutely, I think that.
Absolutely.
[00:23:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And I want to go back to something you said a minute ago, because it was so on point with what the theme of this podcast is, and one thing I want to highlight is that the podcast aims to find common ground on the something as divisive as abortion. And given how explosive the subject has become, you know, many people have lost the ability to be reasonable and nuanced. And what you're sharing is a perfect example of something we can all agree on. Like, regardless of where you stand on abortion, a woman being forced to have one in when she is trapped in the life of trafficking, we should all be able to say, that is not okay. So have you been able to partner with people or organizations that don't necessarily consider themselves pro life, but can acknowledge that what the abortion facilities are doing are wrong?
[00:24:21] Speaker B: I can't think specifically of an organization in which that has happened. I think we could. I know we could. And I think there needs to be a lot more awareness brought to the table about how we should come together and seeing this and fighting against coerced enforced abortion as a unified team, like, total bipartisan going at that, at that specific subject. Because I know in all 50 states it is illegal to coerce a person, but I'm also finding out that only eight states or so actually criminalize forced abortion. So one place of advocacy is that we can start having these conversations with people who are pro choice and say, I know, I know what you believe, and you know what I believe. But here's where the line is where we need to come together, and the.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: Advocacy all agree that being forced is not right.
[00:25:15] Speaker B: That's perfectly said. And those advocacy points to begin to take to legislation, not just should this be illegal for someone to force another person to take the life of their child, but that we fight it with criminalizing.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: There has to be penalties. There has to be teeth. This is exactly where, this is perfect. This is exactly where we come in because we are looking at the enforcement of these laws. And so there's been times where we have gone to a code and where we saw a violation and then we realized there either is no penalty or the penalty is so small. Yeah, right. It's a $500 fine and there's no teeth. And so it's like if we want to make an impact there, it has to be a deterrent. Like it has to be intense enough that, you know, people do not want to engage because the penalty is so, so severe. And so that's something that we've been able to highlight. You know, when we're going into these, into those, the codes and we're looking at these violations, we go, hey, like, this was a good law, but it has no teeth. It has no, it has no enforcement mechanism. It has no accountability tied to it.
[00:26:25] Speaker B: So. Right. Yeah, there are some states who are recognizing this now as a felony, and there's some other additional points that they make in this new, in this new law to criminalize and create this harsher punishments for breaking this. So I think that's, again, where we can come together. We can go to legislation and have this actively changed.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: When is it understood in the bigger anti human trafficking movement that there is that connection to the abortion industry? Or is that something that, is it commonly recognized that that's a piece of it? Or is that something that there needs to be more education even within the movement itself?
[00:27:13] Speaker B: I agree, there needs to be a lot more education. Being in this for five and a half years is nothing compared to some of the ladies and the men who've been fighting this for a long time. But I do feel like for five and a half years, most of the time, we have not heard this argument. We have not heard this connection correlation, and it's imperative. And I ran into this research that I've used for these conferences lately, years ago, but it was kind of like, oh, wow, that's interesting, and then move on. When it really came to my radar was last October, preparing for the Soundwalk Advocates conference and thinking this is a massive issue that applies to and affects the lives of a lot of victim survivors.
[00:27:54] Speaker A: And, you know, from our perspective, like, when we are looking at holding these abortion facilities accountable, again, especially in states like Illinois and California, you know, Washington that don't regulate abortion, but they regulate human trafficking. Right. And so it's, for us, it's like being able to say, this is not an issue of abortion. This is not us trying to close an abortion facility on a technicality that doesn't matter. We can agree that human trafficking is wrong. And if you have. If you are going to buckle down on it in your state, sure. Like, take care of this. Right. And so we see it as a. As a way to hold the abortion facilities accountable in areas that don't regulate abortion. Right?
[00:28:44] Speaker B: Yeah. So y'all do.
[00:28:45] Speaker A: Thank you so much.
So what can we do? Like, how can we help break the cycle of. Between the abortion industry and the sex trafficking? And, you know, on a larger note, how can we help, like, eliminate human trafficking?
[00:29:01] Speaker B: As pro life advocates, I think the most powerful thing that we can do is notice the unseen. So I think of scripture where Jesus reminds us that God sees the sparrows, and these ladies are not hiding. They are very visible. And if we know what to look for, we can see those spirits, those who are really often neglected, not seen unnoticed in our community. And when we notice is when we can begin to create compassionate connections with them and offer the help that they might need.
And coming to the table with compassion, I think that is the driving force behind the work of Christ and the work of every person who is able to engage with girls approaching abortion facilities or girls in the life. And we can bring compassion to the table, and we can create connection that leads ultimately to care. And I think that's the most powerful thing that we can offer.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: Right. And our panel specifically in October was about equipping, like, Cyborg advocates and the pregnancy centers on, you know, when they are out there and they see situations that, you know, are suspicious or look like trafficking. You know, I remember you guys really doubling down on, like, practical ways of, like, don't physically insert yourself. Like, don't be safe. Like, what are some practical tips, like, for the psych advocate for the pregnancy center, for the community member that is out there, and they see what looks like a very obvious situation of trafficking, like, what are the practical things that they could do to help her but also keep themselves safe?
[00:30:52] Speaker B: Yeah, good call on that, for sure. I think the safety issue is paramount, not just for the outreach worker, for us, but also for the girl that we're trying to reach out to. What we can do is start, if we have not had time to analyze or assume certain parts about her experience.
It's hard to gauge what to do. And so until then, doing a very little that could put her at risk is paramount. And so if it is a minor, we have no option in North Carolina because we have a mandatory reporting law that says anyone over 18 is a mandatory reporter, if we notice.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: Oh, so it doesn't even have to be a practitioner.
Wow. That's great.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: It is.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: Okay, let's put a note in their policymakers. Every state needs to have, if you. Everyone's a mandatory reporter? Yes.
[00:31:44] Speaker B: I think it's beautiful. Legislature?
[00:31:45] Speaker A: That is great.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: Absolutely. So we are required, if we see a minor in a situation that doesn't feel right and we are to report. I think bottom line for us is if it doesn't feel right, it isn't.
[00:31:57] Speaker A: We say the same thing.
If it seems suspicious, it probably, like, if it seems wrong, it probably is.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: And I heard a person say that a red flag does not have to be a red flag. So we call these pink flags at life 107 that it does not have to be flaming red when your spirit is alarming to you that something just is off about a situation that is enough for you to start taking note.
Making the call, though, to engage, to intercept in a traffic survivor, is. Is. So we need more protocols on this? Yes, we really, and I don't know that there's any state that has protocols on. When do you make that call? It is. So it is this discernment that you have to make the call the right time, because basically, we have to think about, okay, if this happens, how will this affect her or us? So, bottom line, never engaging to where you're putting yourself or her at risk. If you suspect at all that she's with a pimp or a bottom. A bottom is usually another female who is being victimized. But she's been there longest, and she's. She's kind of earned this up in the hierarchy.
[00:33:08] Speaker A: Yeah, she's a hierarchy.
[00:33:10] Speaker B: So making observations don't just look for men. It's often the older female, another female in the group that's keeping management there. So just making sure that we're making good observations. If we're noticing there's someone at risk with her, we're doing very minimal until we have a chance to engage with her one on one. If we're handing anything to her, it's something that cannot be detected by the pimp as a threat. So at life 107, we make. Make tiny little tags that look like price tags, barcodes, and that literally look like you would get off a piece of clothing. And on the bottom is our hotline. And so when we hand this off, we make sure she knows what that number is and that she makes sure no one else knows what that number is. So if it is to be discovered and she's not at risk.
But I know as bystanders, we want to intercede and we want to fix this, but recognizing her stage of change and if she's not in that space where she's uncomfortable yet, there's very little we can do until she is uncomfortable.
[00:34:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And I know what we've been telling. So after that panel we did together, it was so helpful for me and for Lauren because we went back and looked at, you know, our protocols and, you know, so because we get this question all the time from the sidewalk advocates of what do I do when I see the suspicious van pull up with five, you know, and so it made us re examine, you know, what are we telling people? And so what we learned from you guys was like, look at your states. You know, a lot of states have their own hotline now that connected to the attorney general's office and, like, going looking at what your local county or your state has in place instead of calling the national lines or things like that that are overrun, you know, just don't have that quick response. So we had a situation very soon after this panel, and it was Nebraska, which Nebraska actually has a very good hotline in place that is responsive. And so we had a psywic advocate reach out and say, you know, there was a situation that it seemed like it was an abuse situation. And so she called the hotline and they sent out a sheriff and, you know, they went in and it was like, you know, she was not involved in, but she got the right people there because the sheriff could go inside, have the conversation. Right. And, but she got in an argument with one of the clinic workers, one of the abortion facility workers, and she had disclosed that she was the one that was calling. And I said, hey, hey, don't share that. Like, don't, don't publicize it. You were the one that called.
And she had such good intentions. And she was just in, you know, I'm hero mode, you know, and she was like, I'm trying to just do the right thing.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: And I said, don't tell people that you called.
[00:36:11] Speaker A: And she goes, oh, my gosh. I didn't even think of that. She was like, thank you so much. Like, it didn't even cross her mind that, like, we you make that call and then you step back. And if the authorities are involved, sure, you know. Right. But, you know, sometimes, especially in the pro life movement where we get so, like, tunnel vision on helping, helping, helping that. Like, it's taken us to, like, that, to plant that seed of, like, yes, make that call, but like, shh.
[00:36:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And be quiet about it. Quiet things trickle.
[00:36:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And so, and she was so thankful because she just said, I didn't even. And I wouldn't have even thought to tell her that had you guys not educated us as well. And so, you know, states, I are, you know, starting to wake up to this and put their own, you know, protocols and resources in place. And so it's that, you know, from the broadest sense, you know, I know it's so hard because we deal with this all the time. Like, every situation is so different. It's hard to, it's hard to give general advice. But, like, for the most part, it's, if you see it, have a, have a protocol where you just get the right people there and you take the step back. Right.
[00:37:33] Speaker B: The two words that are coming to mind is protocol. I think that's beautiful. If we don't know, if we don't have a set step to take, we won't take it. So having that in place before you send your girls out, in terms of sidewalk advocates or whoever's in the community keeping their eyes on this, they need a protocol of what to do. Steps to take. But then also discernment. Discernment is so imperative, as we call the hotline. And I have heard positive and negative. And the bottom line is, if we're calling the hotline, it's mostly because we've either got her permission, we have her with us, and she's ready to move on this thing, or we have seen a minor, or we have seen that we've taken data on a specific predator that has multiple people. Interesting, because I feel like the national Human Trafficking Hotline is a great place to send a tip. Like, okay, so I'm noticing this person and I'm noticing suspicious activities. But specifically calling because you see one girl victimized and you called about that specific one situation, the likelihood of something coming to fruition by that call is probably not beneficial when you call the.
[00:38:45] Speaker A: National line versus a local.
[00:38:48] Speaker B: Right.
[00:38:48] Speaker A: Is that.
[00:38:49] Speaker B: I feel like, yeah, absolutely. Just thinking about the situation and all that's at play there. And how will that call affect her in the future? In five minutes and five days.
[00:38:59] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And just being very wise about that. As well.
[00:39:03] Speaker A: Right, right. Because the, what we saw in Nebraska, it was, I guess the protocol that they have in place is you call this hotline and then they call again the local sheriff and they're sending a deputy out like immediately. So it was much faster because it was again, localized. Someone could physically show up and question the situation, whereas these national resources, while they are good, they're not able to have that quick turnaround. Right.
[00:39:31] Speaker B: Well, and what I'm understanding about the national Human Trafficking hotline is they do have a network for local situations. So what happens if we call the hotline is they root in all of the resources that they trust, law enforcement, healthcare providers, human trafficking resource providers, and they bring them to the table at that point. So they do have those connections. The problem that some people are having is the long wait times and just not knowing that response there. So if you do know a local anti trafficking organization that is able to enter at this point, I think that is the best, best option for sure. But if you don't, the main hotline or the national one is definitely useful.
[00:40:19] Speaker A: Something is better than nothing.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:40:22] Speaker A: But if you can pull on the local network, it's preferable.
[00:40:27] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:40:27] Speaker A: That's amazing. This is so amazing.
I'm already thinking all the ways that I can use this conversation to educate our leaders and the psych advocates and the pregnancy centers and the people that we work directly with because our position is I'm just going to put as many tools in your tool belt to identify violations at these abortion facilities and get us that information in a way that is protecting the women, that's protecting the organization, but also gives us that door to hold them accountable. And this, again, is such an easy way because, you know, even if the medical board or the health department or even the police, if they don't want to get involved with abortion stuff, they do want to get involved with to stop human trafficking. And I just, I see it as not only are we working towards ending human trafficking and helping, you know, get these girls out of the situation, but really holding the bad actors accountable that are perpetuating this horrific industry.
[00:41:37] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:41:37] Speaker A: You know, and so I just think that this is going to be so incredibly helpful for, because we're asked this all the time, like, there's a vacuum right now of resources for this overlap. Right. So unfortunately, like, the trope is if you have an idea now, you have to do it. Right?
[00:41:58] Speaker B: Right.
[00:41:59] Speaker A: Yes. So, you know, I'm trying not to like give myself more work, but this is ever since that conversation on the panel back in October. It has been in my goals. I'm like, we. We've got to get more information out there specifically on this overlap. And I think this is a good second step. So, first step was having that panel, and then this is like this continued conversation, you know, from that.
[00:42:27] Speaker B: But it's great that y'all are bringing awareness to this because I do feel like this conversation has started with the pro life movement, and it's going to trickle into the human trafficking movement until we are all approaching this together in the right way.
[00:42:41] Speaker A: Yeah, one other thing.
So we are seeing, ever since Roe versus Wade was overturned and all the states, you know, changed how. You know, some of them completely banned it. Some of it went the other direction and completely deregulated it. You know, we have these abortion destinations, right? So southern Illinois, Atlanta, Columbus, California, you know, like any place, you know, western Virginia, let that border all of these states with stricter abortion rules. We've seen these abortion facilities organized in a way where they create what's called logistics centers, and they are offering services to women, girls in these states that restrict abortion, and they help them get to the abortion facility by paying for their travel, but then they're putting them in hotels that are notoriously dangerous and they have to come alone or they.
They only pay for them to come. They don't pay for a support person to come with them. They are offering this service to minors. They don't require a legal guardian. They prefer. It is what they told us when we called.
We called them ourselves.
They prefer a legal guardian, but it's not required.
And there was one reported situation where a girl used the service to get to a location, and then she changed her mind and they didn't help her get home. Home, right. And to me, I hear that and I go, that sounds a lot like trafficking. Yes.
Right. There's. Or at least it is a recipe.
[00:44:32] Speaker B: Right.
[00:44:33] Speaker A: That is a perfect situation for abusers and traffickers to take advantage.
[00:44:40] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:44:41] Speaker A: Right.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Saying that, well, that it's not like it is trafficking occurring, but that they are creating those vulnerabilities that really put her in a situation that is so.
[00:44:52] Speaker A: Unsafe for commercial sex. Right. Because we couldn't. We couldn't when we were looking at the situation like face value, we're like, this is not technically trafficking, but it is creating the perfect opportunity for abusers to take advantage of this system that is pulling a woman out of her safety safe place, taking her to a foreign city.
[00:45:14] Speaker B: Right.
[00:45:14] Speaker A: You know, and putting her in a hotel that is notoriously dangerous by herself, like yes.
[00:45:22] Speaker B: And no way home as you've, you've paid her to do, in other words.
[00:45:27] Speaker A: Right, exactly.
[00:45:28] Speaker B: Like coercion in general.
[00:45:29] Speaker A: Well, that's the argument I'm trying to make. It's harder, it's a little tougher legally to make. But that, I think that's another area where now that we're seeing so much of, of the crossing state lines and these destinations that are popping up in New Mexico and Illinois and California, like, even if you are pro abortion, like, you know, even if as a legislators, you know, you don't want to regulate abortion, whatever, but be aware of how your state is handling the abortion facilities in the sense that you're not creating these perfect scenarios for women to be victimized.
[00:46:12] Speaker B: Right. You know, let's not create more vulnerabilities for women. Absolutely.
[00:46:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:18] Speaker B: I need to correct that. And that. Let's not make more vulnerabilities for women and children or even babies.
[00:46:25] Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Because this work, while, like, you are focused more on rescuing the woman, what we do, it's. It extends to the child, the Preborn child. Like, like, there are two lives at stake here.
[00:46:47] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:46:48] Speaker A: Right.
Wow, this is amazing. So we tried to, this was such a heavy subject. It's so helpful. But I imagine you're like me, where sometimes you just need a break. I'm like, sometimes I just don't want to talk about abortion.
I'm sure sometimes you're like, I don't want to talk about trafficking because it's such a heavy, emotional, draining subject. We almost become, like, become a little desensitized to it. And every once in a while I'll have a case that jolts me back.
But we try to take a step back at the end of the podcast and end on a lighter note. So we asked our guests, like, what do you do off the clock? Like, what is your favorite hobby? But it can't be parenting. It can't be, you know, it's got to be like, purely for the joy of life. So I usually say, like, I'm gardening, you know, I like plants, and I got really into puzzles for a while. You know, some things that's just like, yeah, step back. What's the thing that you love to do?
[00:47:55] Speaker B: Oh, for sure, just hike and be in creation. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Just being in the mountains of Dillon Sea, it's like the, there's just a mass of opportunity to be able to enjoy the woods. And usually that's with family, son and husband.
[00:48:10] Speaker A: Yeah. So it includes your family, but the hiking part is what you're really enjoying. I love that. So there's a lot of trails. You're going up mountains, down mountains. Like, how long are these hikes?
[00:48:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, gosh. So they could be very long. We actually have just a trail up behind our home that we're so privileged to be able to just walk on and soak up. Soak up time, silence, and communion with God in his creations.
[00:48:36] Speaker A: Do you have animals that are, like, going with you?
[00:48:39] Speaker B: Yes, if we don't take those. So we have three dogs. One is Trixie. She's tiny, she's a little wiener dog. And so she tries to do the hike. But we also have two other dogs that are my sons, and they just love to be on the mountain. So they go with. And then.
[00:48:55] Speaker A: Yeah. What kind of dogs are they?
[00:48:57] Speaker B: Okay, so one is an original mountain kerr. Okay.
[00:48:59] Speaker A: So he's in his element. Like, let's go. Yes.
[00:49:02] Speaker B: You're probably one of the only people that understand that outside of our area. Yeah. And then the other is a plot hound. And so they're just beautiful and fun.
[00:49:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so fun. I love it. My dog would be happy for a little while, but then she would be like, I'm. I just want to go lay on the couch.
[00:49:18] Speaker B: Just go back home right. After a while.
[00:49:20] Speaker A: Oh, I love it so much. Yeah. So that we have gone long, but it's fine because this is completely worth it. That's right. Thank you so much for joining me and for educating us on this. Where can listeners find out more about your work?
[00:49:34] Speaker B: Absolutely. So the best place to go is our website at life 10 seven.org dot. Very simple. And also, we have a presence on Instagram, which is I 107 of WNC.
And then we do some on LinkedIn. But our main outlet is, of course, the website and Instagram.
[00:49:53] Speaker A: And do you have any, like, personal websites or social media handles that you want to highlight, too?
[00:49:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I. Probably not. Just for safety. In terms of. Yeah, yeah, you get it.
[00:50:04] Speaker A: It makes so much sense. Okay. Okay. See, that's another thing you just don't consider. It's like, when you're in this work, how public do you make your personal stuff?
[00:50:16] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:50:17] Speaker A: Yeah, wow. Thank you so much for joining us today. Remember, episodes drop every other Friday and are available for everyone to hear. So help us spread the word by rating, reviewing, and sharing with your friends. Don't forget, when you buy your next bag of coffee, use our link in the show notes to support our work through seven weeks coffee. For more information about our amazing work, at the center for Client Safety, visit centerforclientsafety.org dot. You can also find us on socials at center for Client Safety and find me on socials. Missymartinastone see you next time.
