[00:00:06] Speaker A: This is Missy Martinez Stone, and you're listening to the Centered Podcast, where we have unifying conversations on the divisive subject of abortion.
Hi, and welcome back to the Centered Podcast. I'm your host, Missy Martinez Stone. Welcome. President and CEO of the center for Client Safety. And today I am absolutely thrilled to be sitting down with my dear friend and honestly, one of the leaders that I respect most in the movement, Jerrel Godse, president of Heartbeat International.
Jerrelle leads a phenomenal team that equips, empowers, and encourages thousands of leaders at Heartbeat affiliated pregnancy help Centers, Maternity homes and Adoption Services, which is the largest pregnancy help network in the US and around the world.
Now in more than 100 countries. They also operate the vital 24. 7 direct outreach program, option Line, and Abortion Pill Rescue Network. Jerrell has served in the pregnancy help movement since 1991, first volunteering as a board member, then as part of staff at a local pregnancy help center in south Florida. In 1999, he became executive director of a pregnancy center in Longmount, Longmont, Colorado.
[00:01:34] Speaker B: Longmont.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: Yeah, Longmont. That's a big Florida to Colorado. And then seven years later, moved to Ohio to join Heartbeat as vice president. And today he's the. He's only the second president in the organization's 54 history.
In my opinion, he is one of the best examples of what it means to be a servant leader. Terrell, welcome to the Centered Podcast.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: So pleased to join you. Missy, thank you for the kind, kind comments. I truly appreciate your friendship.
You are such a unique individual and a gift to the pregnancy help movement.
[00:02:11] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. Okay, so before we dive into our conversation, I. I do have to admit something to you.
Back when I worked at Students for Life, this was probably easily 10 years ago. I did. I wasn't familiar with you yet, and I kept hearing your name from Tina, and, you know, with conference, I think you were speaking on something.
And I grew up in pretty, you know, charismatic religious upbringing, and so when I heard your name, my assumption would was that it was an obscure Hebrew reference from the Bible.
And years later, when we were launching what was In Re Protection, I was talking about our partnership because, you know, you were. You were connected from, like, the beginning. And I said something about my friend Jerrell Godsey, and my husband kind of got this funny look on his face, and he asked me, he said, what is his name?
And I said, it's Jerrell. I was like, I'm. I think it's a Bible name. And he said, honey, no, it's not. And I Googled it. Sure enough, it is not a Bible name.
So can you share who you are really named after?
[00:03:25] Speaker B: Absolutely. This is one of my most oft asked questions, like, where'd you get that name? Like, it's a hyphen. It's got more than one capital. Like, what the heck is that? And you're right. Most of the people assume it's got a Bible connection, which I think would be very cool. Like, I found out the word the Jordan. Like, Jordan river means descendant, and I'm like, l means God. Like, come on. And I asked someone who spoke Hebrew, and I said, what does it mean? And she said, nothing.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: Nothing.
[00:03:49] Speaker B: Ouch. Yeah. No fun. But it actually comes from Krypton. It's Superman's father's name, which you did not know, but your husband knew. Because that's really my claim to fame. I've never been in a room where someone called a name and said Jerrel and it wasn't referring to me. It was a very interesting. It's a very interesting reality for me and having a very unique name.
But, yeah, it comes from Superman. All of my. All of my kids have Superman names. We've had a lot of fun with it.
[00:04:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that you just leaned into it, you know? Like, I love that you embraced it. And I think it's a really, really cool name. But, yeah, my. My husband was like, honey, that's. You mean like Superman's dad? And I was like, no, it's not. Yep, it actually is.
I love it. And. And I think it actually is kind of fitting because the work you do is truly heroic. So, I mean, you really lean into it.
I mean, since 1991, you said you. You started volunteering in the pregnancy help world. Not to make you feel old, but that's. I was three.
It's been a long time.
What drew you into pro life work?
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Yeah, great question. So before 91 now, I grew up in South Florida, which you mentioned. That's where I kind of. It wasn't where I was born. I'm a military brat, so I. Oh, same.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: I didn't know that.
Yeah, I'm also. Yeah, always Marines and Coast Guard. We were always on the. On the beach. Always on the coast.
[00:05:30] Speaker B: Well, I didn't have the luxury of being on the coast until my dad retired from the Air Force, and then we moved to Fort Lauderdale area. So that's where I grew up. I was there 25 years.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: That makes sense. Now. Florida to Colorado. Now I get it.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: There you go.
[00:05:43] Speaker A: Got it. Got it.
[00:05:44] Speaker B: Yep.
I found myself as a younger person in an unplanned pregnancy with my girlfriend and not knowing any better, didn't grow up in a particularly conservative home or certainly a religious one.
I helped her. I facilitated the abortion for her, for our child. And that was a place where I didn't know any better. And so it wasn't long after that, that relationship, as most of them don't survive those kind of incidences, although they're often. That's the excuse, right, is to try to save that relationship. The abortion doesn't typically allow that. And that's what happened with us.
But not long after that relationship ended, I stepped into a different relationship, one with the God of the universe, and found myself in church on a regular basis, connecting with something that I had had briefly as a teenager and then was reconnected with all of that.
And that's where the journey for me coming to the pro life movement started. Because there was a pastor that came to a little tiny church that I was in, little storefront church, and he came from another state altogether, and he came and preached a message. And back in those days, they preached for an hour, maybe longer.
But he said one thing that just changed my world completely, Missy. He said, abortion is not a social issue.
And I was like, what? And he said, I mean, I didn't know much at this time, but I'm like, wait a minute. And he said, abortion is not a political issue. I'm like, come on. Like, I know it's a political issue, but he was saying that, to say this, he said, abortion is a gospel issue.
And when he did that, Missy, I was penetrated, sitting in my seat. I don't know who else that message was for, but for me, like, it rocked me in that very moment on a very personal basis, and on another level, it rocked me that our country allowed this and that our, as a people, that we were okay with this. And I immediately understood it to be the moral imperative of our day, like others have encountered in the past, in their day. Right. And so he came with the. He came with a plan. And we left that little church and we went and picketed an abortion doctor. And he brought signs and everything for us to carry like it was. He was on a mission. Yeah, but for me personally, like, I walked into that church pro abortion by action, and I left. I walked out of that church that morning, pro life by absolute conviction. And we got busy. I got involved. The next thing I knew to do was something that was coming in our neighborhood called Operation Rescue. So I found myself Getting arrested not once, but twice. The second time I was arrested, we were actually in jail for the better part of the weekend. And it was actually in jail when I was standing next to my pastor and he was introducing me to another pastor from a different part of the city who said, hey, you guys ought to check this thing out called the crisis pregnancy center. And so my pastor turned to me and said, you need to do that. And I was the one that got to go do that. So I got to walk into this little center. 800 square feet, wasn't open yet, had wood frame, like it was framed. And they couldn't go any further because they needed to run electrical lines. So I said, well, let me go see what I can do. And I went back and I have a couple electricians in our little church. And they came in the next two weeks and wired the building and it moved on. And from that they called me.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: So you were literally helping pregnancy centers from the beginning. Wow.
[00:09:11] Speaker B: They said, would you like to be on the board? And I had no idea what I was saying yes to, but I said yes to that. Fun fact. I was required to attend a counselor training for those volunteers. And I thought, I'm a guy, why do I have to do that? I'm never going to use this. Well, when I did that, I was in that room with 32 other people, only two other guys in the room. But as the Lord would have it, I sat behind a young lady who a year later, we went on our first date. And the year after that we were married. So God used the pregnancy center in many, many ways to shape my life, not the least of which is bringing the love of my life to me. And that's now. We just now celebrated 30 years last year.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: So was this all happening in Colorado? Like, this is Florida?
[00:09:55] Speaker B: This is all south Florida? Yep.
[00:09:57] Speaker A: Wow.
So I. So I. I grew up on the Gulf coast and then relocated to. To DC when I was in high school. And some of my earliest interactions with. With activism and the pro life movement was with a man named Pat Mahoney, who was old. Yeah, so there we go.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: He was the instigator in from south.
[00:10:21] Speaker A: Yes, he was.
[00:10:22] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: So his daughters are some of my best friends. One of his daughters actually married my brother.
So Pat would take us to. As 16 year olds, he would take us to the White House and the Supreme Court. And the rule was once the yellow tape went up, if we were a minor, we had to step away. We were not allowed to get arrested.
And so he was one of the People who introduced me to this whole movement. And I was, I would joke and say like I would, I would skip school, you know, with my parents permission, I would take the train up to D.C. we were living in Fredericksburg to go pray in front of the Supreme Court and protest against abortion. So our roots are similar. I was just, you know, in D.C. but they were the instigator.
[00:11:10] Speaker B: The instigator is the same because he was the one that organized that initial meeting where the op, where the Operation Rescue stuff was being. He was the organizer behind that for Operation Rescue in our area. So yeah, we have a common background. Yeah, Catalyst, I should say.
[00:11:26] Speaker A: Yeah, my sister in law, the. The joke is that she was arrested when she was like two months old or something. Like Katie had just given birth to her and they were doing one of their, you know, sit ins and things. And so Caitlin went to jail as like a, an infant.
So that's. I did, you know, I did not know that about you. See this is why I love doing this because I learn so much about the leaders that, you know, I'm doing this work with day in and day out. But we don't ever get to just take time and get into this kind of stuff. So you were volunteering and helping out on the board of this pregnancy center in Florida and then you got a job offer in Colorado. Like how or.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: No, actually, no on the board. We were actually talking about adding a staff position to our center there because we were growing. We had, we went through a merge. We had two locations. We were envisioning open opening a third and fourth. And they realized that the executive director needed some administrative help. And we are agonized over that for a long time. And the long story is I became the answer to that question. I was on the board and I left the board to then join as the number two on the team there in South Florida. And so that was that. So I really started working in this full time in 1996. So I'm about on the 30 year history of working in this ministry full time since then. And it was later, it was in 99 that through my wife, she worked for Einstein Bagels, which is a national bagel.
[00:13:06] Speaker A: That was my first job at 15.
[00:13:09] Speaker B: Is it really? There you go.
So that was being formed at this time and there was some leadership changes that were going on and the leaders that she had in South Florida was, were relocating to the Denver metro area and they were basically calling her to join them in that, which meant a move.
She had done that remotely for a while. And they said, no, we want you in Colorado. So I actually got to Colorado as a trailing spouse.
But what happened was the board chair at that time walked into the meeting where I basically said, we're moving to Colorado. She said, then you'll want this. And it was actually a.
An ad for an executive director in just north of the metro area in Denver. And I'm like, okay. So I emailed them my resume. They got me sight unseen. We had some interviews, and I was able to step into that role in Colorado along with the bagel company, which one of the board members said, I've never seen a bagel company used by God before, but that was his language. And I thought that was very fitting.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: The bagel company helped put money in my bank account to go to Bible college for a year. So Einstein Bagels did a lot, a lot of good work. Wow, that is amazing. And then from there, you end up at Heartbeat as the vice president under Peggy, and then you took on that role. So I would say, and again, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been in the pro life movement since I was young. And I would say. So it's been probably over 20 years, I think Heartbeat International is considered to me. And I would say, everyone, this is pretty well understood that Heartbeat's one of the most recognized, you know, pro life organizations in. In the world.
And I would say you're. You are. You said at the beginning, like, you are the largest pregnancy affiliate network.
But for people who may not know Heartbeat, can you just give us a snapshot of Heartbeat's mission? And. And then I would love to hear just a couple of projects or things that you guys are doing specifically that you're really excited about.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks. We. So I always like to say it like this. Heartbeat really came into existence. It was called into existence by the pregnancy help folks of its day. Right. So if, of course, I was alive, but I was very young at this time, but you figure abortion really hits the map in the US in the late 60s, right. Colorado was the first state to legalize abortion and followed quickly by California, North Carolina, Oregon.
And this is all pre Roe. Right. And so the reality is that there are people, of course, incensed by this who realized, like, this can't happen in our nation. And they began to do things, to step up and say, we need to push back on this.
Now, that's the beginning of the sidewalk protest, of the activism. But there were also a group of people that were saying, hey, while this is getting sorted out in the political realm, we need to make sure that these women who suddenly have this before them as an option have alternatives to abortion. And that's where Heartbeat International comes in. So there was a meeting in Chicago in November of 1971 that essentially founded Heartbeat International. It was then known as Alternative to Abortion International.
And it was a collection of actually mostly individuals. You know, the pregnancy center concept was still brand new at that time. It had only the first one opened in 1990 or 19, 1968. And so there's only dozens of them at this point in time. And that's really where Heartbeat gets its start. And it starts really as a way to network, to learn to kind of help each other as we learn how to do this, kind of alternatives to abortion who would involve. That's why we are pregnancy centers, plus maternity homes, plus adoption agencies. It quickly went global. We had several countries in Europe, so that's how Heartbeat got started. And then it began to do some things, provide services and things for local pregnancy centers so that really we could help the local communities who were responding to the call. What I think is of the Holy Spirit, right, hey, there's this issue.
People need help. What are you going to do about it? And so we were the answer to that as best we could, helping connect folks not just around the US but around the world. And to me, we look at the pregnancy help movement as a whole, but also in the US we know that we think it happened sometime late in 1996, that for the very first time, after many years of growing and the beginning of the decline of the abortion industry as like standalone locations, that for the first time there was one more pregnancy center than there was abortion clinics in the US And I was like, yay. We didn't know it at the time, but that's when it happened. And so as we fast forward, we get to around 2017, and as the time of that 2018, there are for every one pregnant or every one abortion clinic, there are three pregnancy centers now.
And those dynamics are changing, as we know, because of chemical abortion.
But that's like the history of Heartbeat helping promote and advance pregnancy help wherever it is. And that's led us to start option line in 2003, which is a 24, 7 call center. And then in 2018, we took on the management of the Abortion Pill Reversal Network, which we changed to Abortion Pill Rescue Network.
And that really allowed us to grow the Abortion Pill Rescue.
That first year, we saw like a three times growth from where it would have been from taking over from Dr. Delgado and his team who had done it. I mean, he's operating a local.
He was operating a local practice as well as a pregnancy center and this national hotline. So we took it on and we were able to take it and build upon what they had done and have been growing it ever since.
[00:19:24] Speaker A: Wow.
Yeah. I mean, I remember when, when the abortion pill rescue. So you would say, when did you guys take that one on?
[00:19:36] Speaker B: We, we took it on in 2018.
That was the first time we took a call. But he actually, he actually started it in 2012 when it was initially launched. And, you know, California is where he was based, and it really took hold in California. California is still our highest, highest number of abortion pill reversal incidences that we have in this. In the country. Yep.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah, because I, I started Senior Life in 2013, and it was really at the beginning of this conversation about abortion pill reversal. And I know that you guys have had to deal with a lot of pushback on that subject. And the, you know, now especially we're looking at chemical abortions are skyrocketing. You know, now they're being mailed into the country illegally. I mean, we can't even track the number of chemical abortions that are coming into the country and being distributed. So. And, you know, what we're seeing are the complications are the issues on the other side.
But I know as usage of chemical abortions rise, the spotlight on abortion pill rescue also rises. And I know that you guys have faced a lot of criticism and things for promoting that. So talk a little bit about what that process is and why it's valid and maybe some of the things that people try to. What do they say to discredit it?
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks. I always have to remember, like, we don't ever know who's quite tuning into this conversation. And it's unfortunately like, it's. More people should know about this, the reality of reversal. But we have to start with the fact that abortion pill is not one pill, but two. It's mifepristone. I know you know this well, but it's mifepristone, which is designed to starve the baby. In essence, it's a progesterone blocker is what it is. And progesterone is what the woman produces naturally. So mifepristone is created in a lab, has an interesting story all by itself. But if, if she changes her mind after taking that first pill and before she takes the second pill, there's this window of time where we've proven it in several studies all the studies show that it's effective, that if you introduce a high dosage of progesterone, the progesterone has the chance to out compete the methopristone. And the largest study ever done shows that that can be effective up to 64 to 68% of the time, which is two thirds.
So depending upon the age of gestation, how far along she is, there is a chance, a decent chance that she can actually rescue the life of that baby if she's changed her mind and is interested in pursuing that. So that's the value that we want to continue promoting. If someone finds that they're in that situation and they really, in essence, missy, they want to withdraw their consent from an abortion they no longer want. And every woman should have that right. Unfortunately, there's a handful of states that have been fighting against that been.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: That's been the big challenge, which honestly is confusing to me because the giving out progesterone or the distribution of progesterone during pregnancy is very. When you're even with somebody like myself, I had two miscarriages before my daughter. And one of the things that they test is for low progesterone because it leads to miscarriages.
It's, it's. Without progesterone, the, the baby, like the baby needs it. Right. And so if you block progesterone, the child dies. Right. And then if you put it back, you know, so to me, it's common sense, right? This isn't, this isn't a, oh, this is pro life, you know, crazy things that we're doing. That's like off the wall, right? Like, this is very traditional medicine.
You guys have just applied it to this controversial subject and all of a sudden these states want to argue the validity of using progesterone to ensure pregnancy viability. Right? Like that part.
I have a really hard time understanding their position because, yeah, this is widely used to ensure healthy pregnancies.
And so I mean, not only that.
[00:24:18] Speaker B: You think about, from the people that always talked about choice, like, I don't understand it from a principal perspective, like, what do you care to the abortion industry. You've got your money and you have your statistic, like, what do you care if she chooses to do what she can to continue the pregnancy? So that's what's confusing to us. And you're right, it is a theory. Progesterone has been around since like the 1940s, right? So it's been used to help women forever. One doctor, one of our abortion pill rescue network doctors, Says this. He says, Jerrell. He says, we. We obs prescribe progesterone like it's water.
They. They want to introduce it at every opportunity that they can. So it's a. Very commonly used. To your point, it's. It's something that the woman produces in her own body anyway.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: Right.
[00:25:06] Speaker B: It's like, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense why they would be fighting it unless we're talking about other things like ideology, some sp. Spiritual understanding about the whole issue of abortion, the abortion distortion in general.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. And I, I've heard too, that another way that the abortion industry has tried to get around this is we're hearing now on our end of providers just skipping the first pill altogether. I don't know if you've heard this, but basically only administering the second pill. And, and that pill is designed to basically put your body into labor. Right. And again, it's very commonly used in the ob GYN space if you've had an early miscarriage and if your body is. Is having issues naturally passing the child, they will give misoprostol. Right.
And so what we are hearing now is, is providers only doing the misoprostol part and skipping the progesterone blocker altogether. And, you know, I don't want to assume that everybody is evil and has these, you know, malicious intent, but with the abortion industry, it's kind of hard not to. But part of me is like, to me it sounds like they're taking that route a. For cost efficiency. But also it's another way to get around this opportunity for the woman to change her mind. Right. Because if they just do the misoprostol, it's. They don't. There's not a chance. Right. To, to reverse that first part.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: That's what we don't know. Like, there hasn't been studies on that yet. There's, you know, there is, there are some potential answers to that, but what's really gruesome about that is, like, they're willing to practice on women, you know, for their, for the, for. For what we would say is, is either profiteering or some kind of crazy ideology.
And because none of this has been actually proven or tested by the fd, were approved by the fda, they want to talk about progesterone being an issue. It's like, seriously, you're okay. And what's even worse than that is that if you don't use mifepristone and you only use misoprostol, you're more likely to actually expel a live baby.
We somehow are okay putting women through that kind of trauma.
This is very, very, very scary stuff. And that people are trying in the name of, you know, autonomy or self managed abortion. And the other thing, as you well know, is like they're doing this over risk management and allowing women to be left alone in this process which effectively turns their own homes, their own bathrooms, their own dorm rooms into their own abortion clinics. And we just have not begun to unpack the psychologies of those things. And to me that's just a terrible miscarriage of, of justice, of anything remotely considering healthcare.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: Yeah, the generational trauma, I know every generation has it. You go back to the Great Depression, the wars. I really think that, you know, especially post Roe, when especially the chemical abortion world, it just went, I mean it's completely unregulated.
We're going to be dealing with generational trauma years down the road of the women, not only the women, but the families that are suffering the consequences of an industry that is supposed to be serving them.
And that's something that I have said from the beginning.
The people they claim to serve are the ones that are bearing the brunt of, of the consequences of, of their, the cavalier way they handle this medication, their obsession with, you know, lack of regulations. Like the people that are paying the price are the people you're supposed to be empowering and serving. And that is, is so it doesn't make sense to me.
The only way that you can make sense of it really is if you put it in the context of an industry.
This is a business. They make a lot of money, you know, like they, you know, they are profiting from this. This is a million dollar industry that they are selling these abortion pills.
And it's just so, so you are, you guys are the front lines, right? So the pregnancy centers are the ones that are reaching the women who are pregnant who are abortion minded. And now even if they've begun the abortion process, right? And now there's this amazing resource of abortion pill rescue.
And then even women who have had abortion experiences, a lot of the, they end up at the pregnancy centers because they offer amazing counseling and healing programs. But as you guys have been serving, you see your pregnancy center started seeing crazy things, right?
And we overlapped, I would say back in 20, it would have been 2019 or 2020. We were both in D.C. again, this was probably right when re protection had just started. David B. Wright was our founding board chair and we were at a conference and David was like, you need to Meet Jerrell. He was like, I need to get you in front of Jerrell.
So David pulls me over and he's like, jerrell, you need to meet Missy. And I remember, I start talking about what we're doing and your body language, like, you're, you're trying to be so kind, but you were like, like you looked very like, trepidatious. You were like.
And I was like, oh, no, no, no. Like, you know, we want to be trauma informed. We want to keep things confident. As I started explaining more about the center for Client Safety and how we wanted to really advocate for these women who have these horrific experiences at these abortion facilities.
And there's this moment in my mind that is like flagship for me of like, you went, oh, thank you. Like, you literally like, oh, thank goodness. Like, we've needed this so badly and you became one of our biggest advocates and cheerleaders from the beginning. So I would love to kind of hear if you can remember, I know this is a very specific moment.
If you can kind of remember as we were talking, as we were introducing you to this, like, what was going on in your mind?
You know, what was the relief like, like, what about CCS was, was special for you?
[00:32:08] Speaker B: So I remember I actually was in a meeting, it was a strategy meeting that predated the foundation of re protection where this whole issue of enforcement was the topic.
I remember driving to Indiana, being at an all day thing with Kathy and some others, Susan was there and some others who were in that conversation. So I was in the, in the kind of the formulating strategies for what became reproduction. I wasn't in the follow up meetings. And part of it, I think was knowing our challenge in the pregnancy help world is being very sensitive to what our mission is and what we're after. And I was kind of bracing for kind of the language where I hear people are very excited to go after the abortion industry, which I get. But there has to be what, what is. What, what eventually I heard you say is, is. Is being very mindful of where the woman is in her trauma and in the fact that she's being exploited by an industry as well. Right. And yes, we want to get to the industry, but we got to help and serve her in the process and love on her. And that's what I heard. That's what I heard you say, Missy. And that's when, that's when you got the reaction like, okay, she gets it. Because so many times, you know, well, meaning people who are either, you know, or they're politicians and they are gunning for the industry, and I get that, but not at the expense of that woman who's been victimized. And that's what I heard. You kind of totally captured that concept for me. And then I knew we were in good hands, and I was like, yay.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And what's crazy is that was something that we decided foundational value from the beginning, because what we were looking at was what enforcement efforts have existed before us and what, you know, what worked and what didn't work. And. And the trend that we were hearing was that the pregnancy centers, the sidewalk advocates, the people that were on the service end, were sit. Basically sitting on all this information and weren't sharing it because they didn't feel like they had a place that they could take the information and. And know that that was going to be considered. Right. And so it was almost like we had this whole wealth of information and really, a people that felt pretty helpless or powerless in that moment of, like, I know this information that could be. That could shut down this abortion facility, but what do I do with it? And that's really what got our. Our mind going of. Of what.
What can we do differently?
And really, I would say to this day, it's really what sets us apart from every other enforcement effort. But to me, it feels obvious. But again, we see the same thing. It's like people have good intentions, people have great intentions, but sometimes they lose the forest for the trees, right? When they just get so focused on the. On the.
The shutting down the abortion facility or the abortionist, you know, getting what's coming to them that they forget that they're dealing with people in crisis and in traumatic situations, in grieving, and it's messy and. And, you know, so. So we made that decision from the beginning. And we also made the decision not to publicly talk about our cases. And that was the other thing that really differentiated us and I think built kind of a bridge to the pregnancy centers, especially, because we said, you can bring us this information, and we're not gonna put it in even. We're not gonna fundraise off of it, right?
And let me tell you, we got a lot of criticism for that because people were like, that's not good fundraising. And I went, I don't care. And we had. You know, we've had no money, right? But I said, that's going to undercut the whole value of caring for the woman through this process. And it's been interesting because taking that principle that you. The pregnancy centers and the psych advocates helped us form now we've completely changed the conversation. Whereas before it was like, no, you publicly talk about this case and, and you go to the media. And I went, I know this is not going to make sense right now and it's going to make fundraising harder, but I think in the long run it's going to serve us better. Right. And that's essentially what's happened. But there's been times where, you know, we have dropped cases. Like a woman has come to us and then she's decided she doesn't want to file the complaint and we go, we're not going to, you know, and that's hard. But at the same time our focus is her and her experience and we do not want her to feel like a pawn.
Right. In our scheme to shut down an abortion facility.
[00:37:00] Speaker B: So after that, that's what really connects you though to the, that's where you really, I think the trust of the pregnancy help movement has, that's where you really entered into that. Because, you know, one of our core values is confidentiality and the idea that we're going to turn someone for good reasons and with good intent and that somehow they're going to be on display for all of that. It kind of runs contrary to that. So your value has really helped allow pregnancy centers to feel like you're a trusted partner, that you're with us in all of this. And of course the intention is always right. The pregnancy centers understand that that's the ultimate goal, will serve others, but they don't ever want that to happen at the expense of someone that they're trying to love into a life affirming decision. So that really helps us. And I so appreciate that you gu have not only landed there but then stayed firm in that process.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think too, I mean, we always say like we talk to them about sharing this information, we're like, don't violate hipaa. You know, it's like we do it in a way that protects them, protects, not only protects the woman who's had this horrific experience, but, you know, we want to protect the pregnancy centers. But the other thing that kind of came up in these conversations was the idea that we are just a tool that they have in their tool belt. And you know, because I remember the first couple times I would talk, you know, we would meet the, we'd be at your conference and there was again, they would always be like a little bit nervous. Right. But once we got talking, we were fine. But the other, the other big part was I don't want them to feel like, oh, here's another national organization asking us to do them a favor. Like, is. Here's just another group asking us to do more work, right? Like, and, you know, and so when we're. When we're meeting with him, it's like, this is just a tool you have in your toolbox. You know, what we are here. What I don't want to do is distract from your mission. And. And we made that very clear from the beginning, too. Was. Was we are only successful when the pregnancy centers are the best pregnancy centers that they can be. Right? When they are trained by you guys. When the psywac advocates are the best IWAC advocates that they could be. When Lauren and her team have fully trained them and resourced them, and they have this tool in their pocket for when the occasion calls for it, they use their discernment to report a violation that comes. That they witness or that comes up in the conversation when talking to a client.
Because, you know, I. Whenever I'm doing the training, which I'll get into a second, we start because I can see them being like, oh, no, you're, like, gonna. I'm like, listen, I, I. You are tired. You are working so hard. I know what it's like to run a. Run a nonprofit. Like, we didn't want to distract from the mission. Instead, it was about, how do we all do our thing and do it well, but stay in our lane. Right? But do it next to each other. And I think it was like, like, me, you, and Lauren at the very beginning. Lauren's at Psych Advocates really doubled down on that principle too. It was like, hey, Jerrel, you do the heartbeat thing, you do the pregnancy resource thing, and we'll get you the resources that you need. And you're like, I'll get you the resources you need to do your thing well. And Lauren's like, I'm over. I'm gonna do this. You know? And I think that was one of the other reasons why we worked together so well, because it was never about taking away from someone else's work. It was, here's a bridge, or here's. Yeah, adding to. Right?
[00:40:49] Speaker B: And I think you are underselling yourself, missy. You describe it as a tool in the toolbox. Like, yeah, that's way too simplistic. It works as a visual in the moment. But you guys are like the special forces.
I've often thought. Like, I think of the Untouchables, the movie where they went after Al Capone and they had to do it in different ways, but they had to be specially focused on that particular thing. And that's really where. Yeah, a tool is fair. But I really see you as a team with a very specialized mission. And you're right. You said it earlier.
When the Holy Spirit presents the right time, when that woman is ready and she's willing and she sees what needs to be done and she wants someone to come alongside her to help push back on her treatment or other, you know, or what she felt that she. How she felt. She was put into a very difficult situation. Like, that's not the role of pregnancy centers. That's where it's like, man, have we got a number to call. And we got a team that will surround you with that purpose in mind.
[00:41:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And I remember again, one of our earliest conversations. You invited me up to Columbus to the Heartbeat office. It was. Was so kind.
I drove up from Louisville, and we were talking, and the other thing that came up a lot, I said, you know, what can we do? Like, what do. What do you guys need? And you said, everyone's calling us. Right? Us as Heartbeat. And with these reports, and we don't know what to tell them. Right. We're not. This. This is not our specialized thing. Like, what. Everyone goes, how do I know that it's a violation? How do we know? How do we know? You're like, they're always calling us. How do we know? How do we know? And. And you're like, can you make a.
That teaches? So that was your idea. So if you've done the training, this was. This was Jerrell's idea. You said, can you make a training of how to identify these. These violations and. And what to do it? And so the. What to do with it? And so the client safety advocacy training was a result of that conversation. And we've. We have obviously, like, updated it since then. And. And the more that we've learned, we've added to it. But it was exactly. I mean, you spoke directly to the needs of the pregnancy help world. Of. That's the number one question we get. And we see the difference between before the training and after the training. It just clicks. As soon as we explain it, they're like, got it right. Like, it's just like, now I understand, but this is a whole new concept. It's like, we're not only introducing a new organization, but we're having to introduce an entirely new concept. Like, people don't even have the box to put it in until I build it for them.
But it's really changed how the Pregnancy centers, you know, just consider the information.
And now they feel like, oh, if I hear this, now I know what to do. Right? And that has been, for us, the biggest gift, because like I said, you guys are the ones that are on the ground. You know, what's going on.
We don't even. At this point, we do not actively look for cases. We can't even take all of them.
All of our cases have come directly from a pregnancy center staff member or sidewalk advocate. Every single one of them.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: Excellent.
[00:44:11] Speaker A: And it's typically people who've gone through that training that you had suggested we make.
And it's really just, just, just giving them the idea and just, hey, consider this when you're talking to them.
And it's just. It's just changed how we approach this whole concept. And so I. It's been exciting. I mean, it's just been exciting to watch this grow. And. And I just want to, like, you and Lauren, like I've said, have been, we're really early adopters. Right. It took everyone else a little bit longer to catch on, but you and Lauren really caught the vision early and saw how this piece could not only partner with you guys, but play the role in the larger enforcement conversation.
[00:45:11] Speaker B: Well, I like that word, role. I mean, that's what I'm saying. A very specialized opportunity that you filled and allows, I think. Imagine someone, you've seen this in the television or movies.
The gurney's crashing through the door at the emergency department. There's a life on the line at that moment. And so there's something that has to be done by those medical professionals coming around that person for which that life is in danger. But if they happen to say something that says they're someone did this to me, that's a different conversation. But that may not be the time to have it. And so that's what the pregnancy centers sometimes feel like. There's a life on the line. There's a baby at risk here. There's a woman that's potentially being coerced into something she doesn't really want, whether circumstances or another person. So it's not the time necessarily to bring up what did that other person say, and is that against the law? But to know that you guys have really worked that scenario, that you understand it better than any of us do, you're there so we can pass that information along so that that can develop in its right timing, like, that's an amazing gift to the pregnancy help movement. And I so appreciate you guys for doing that, Missy, particularly for you. Leading that charge with the right heart on both occasions, right? The heart to see justice done, but the heart also for that woman in that crisis.
[00:46:34] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, we just, we want to be partners, right? We just want to be a piece of the puzzle and we want to serve the pregnancy centers. We want to serve these women. And you know, I think about the. What Heartbeat. I mean, you guys work so hard to ensure that the pregnancy centers that you're serving are top tier, right? And above reproach in every way. Because, I mean, you guys are just constantly under scrutiny. Everyone's trying to find every reason, right, to discredit you.
And, and, you know, and so I, I really want to be considerate of that, that culture of excellence, you know, that, that you have appropriate. I mean, we should be excellent anyways, right? I always say, like, we. But, but, but it's not that. It's not just that.
Yes, I have this conviction, but at the same time, I, we. We are, we have a responsibility, right, to handle these situations above board and to, to be as ethical and moral and, and legal as possible, you know, and, and make sure that.
[00:47:50] Speaker B: Thorough.
[00:47:51] Speaker A: Yeah, thorough. And making sure that the pregnancy centers are, are protected, you know, because we don't, we don't want to open the door at all, right? Like, there's already enough people trying to, I mean, bless you guys. Heartbeat. You guys are always, always the, the focus of people trying to shut you guys down and, and discredit you guys. And it's like, you know, that was something to take into consideration. It was like, we have to be just as excellent, right? We have to be just as thorough. And, you know, if we're going to ask these, these pregnancy centers to work with us, like, they have standards, right? And, you know, I wanted to make sure that whatever we did was not going to open the pregnancy center up for scrutiny or legal problems or to protect us, but also to protect you guys. You know, you've got enough going on.
And so, you know, we've stirred up.
[00:48:54] Speaker B: Enough trouble, like, particularly with abortion, pill reversal. You know, we have this. Attorneys general of California and New York are gunning for us. We've had. The state of Colorado is trying to outlaw the practice. Like, again, that's just silly to me. Why would you take that choice away from a woman to continue her pregnancy? You know, every woman should have the right to continue her pregnancy. And that just, it's unfortunate. And those are battles that we're, we are happy to fight as long as we get before a judge who's Willing to listen to the truth. We're excited for those things to get us. But you're right, we have to fight the abortion industry because they're constantly trying to distort the reality on the ground. And you've heard it through some of the women that you've talked to, what they're experiencing. We've certainly heard examples of that, lived through some of those examples. So, yeah, we're all in this together. Grateful for you guys being a part of it.
[00:49:48] Speaker A: I just. I know we're kind of. We're coming up on. On the hour, and you're incredibly busy, and thank you so much for taking time to do this, but while I have you, I do want to ask kind of one question, a little bit off the subject, especially since at the beginning I said you are one of the best examples of servant leadership, and I know you're going to be. You're going to try to play this down. Yeah, immediately, I knew you were.
But our partnership largely thrives because of how you lead and the example that you set. And, you know, from day one, you were leading the world's. One of the world's largest pro life organizations, and yet you carved out time to champion this little startup. I mean, you literally invited me to the office, took us all, you know, took your team and I out to lunch. And you've always been so responsive and so incredibly supportive and a lot of other people I can say, you know, I mentioned Drill, and everybody's like, we love Jerrell. Like you. Just you.
The humility and the servant leadership that you exemplify is amazing. And so I would just love to hear kind of your philosophy on leadership and how you manage to stay so humble while you help lead such a successful, large, amazing organization.
[00:51:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a hard. It's hard to even wrap my mind around the question. Missy, you know that to me, it's really about a question of stewardship. You know, God is giving. I'm just like you. You said something. I was going to challenge you on the word just. You said, we just want to be a part. Like, what do you mean? Just like, that's. Every part is important, and we know that from Scripture. Every part is.
And that's partly kind of how I approach it. Each part is important.
We get that from what, First Corinthians where it says, you know, you can't say. The eye, can't say that. They're it. They need everything else. Right. So we're like a body. Like, the example that Christ uses of his own is we're like a body and every part is important. So I always try to maintain that mentality and always try to understand that I'm only here for a short time. I'm running my part of the race and someone passed the baton to me and I look forward to passing the baton to the next person.
Even as you told me how old I was at the beginning of this conversation, I am grateful that the Lord is raising up amazing leaders for generations like yours who will then in turn raise up other leaders. And so I'm ever mindful that this is part of how God works through the generations. He raises up those. And so it's just really seeing myself and our work as part of something bigger, which we're all a part of.
[00:52:36] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. No, I appreciate it so, so much. And my conversation with John Mice, this, the last episode, he talked about building his bench of leaders who are like minded and who, I always say, check your ego at the door kind of thing.
And you obviously always come up in those conversations. But I've been really encouraged lately to see kind of this, this partnership forming with a lot of groups that, that hold those mentalities.
I think, I think Roe versus the reversal of Roe versus Wade, while it was so incredible, it caught everybody a little flat footed and there was some chaos there for a minute and. But I'm seeing a new level of continuity, I would say, kind of emerging and this spirit of working alongside each other, championing one another, really emerging.
And it's because of leaders like you and John and Lauren and you know, the Brandy at Vitae and, you know, there's just, it's been really cool to find myself among like minded leaders and I think it's something that, especially the younger pro life gender, the, you know, the, the younger movement wants to see.
Right. They wanted, they. I think there's a, there's a.
Because, you know, Gen Alpha, you say what you want about Gen Alpha and Gen Z, they are authentic. They love authenticity and empathy. Right. They, they want connection.
And I am part of having this podcast is platforming, you know, these kinds of conversations to show that there's a whole group of us who subscribe to this and, and want to see the movement unified. Right. And working together and working towards the same goal.
[00:54:55] Speaker B: Sometimes we have a perception, and you probably have heard this, the perception is that the pro life movement is fractured, that it's, you know, and that's, you can, that's a fair characterization at one point.
[00:55:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Parts of it are, yeah, it's fair.
[00:55:12] Speaker B: But at the same Time. I always like to see, to think of it in terms of. No, we have the. This is from working internationally. I mean, when you go to another country, I've talked to a pregnancy center director, that's the only center in the entire country, and they go to parliament, they speak at Parliament, and they get called for interviews by the television station, and they get to go. They're doing all this kind of stuff. But in the US we have the benefit of being specialized. You guys are a great example of that.
You can put your head down and do what you do best, because some. The rest of us are putting our head down and doing what we do best. And together we have, like, we were talking earlier about the military. You know, you have the branches of government, of branches of the military. They all have different assignments, but they're fighting the same war. And that's kind of where I feel like we have the ability to really walk in specializations if we embrace it.
[00:56:06] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. Oh, I love it so much. All right, so I know we need to. To wrap up, but quickly, at the end of every conversation, I do like to ask because I, I really like to humanize leaders to the, like, we are real people.
And I just, I love. I've learned so many amazing things about people that I've known for years, but we never.
We. We're always talking about abortion. Right? I'm like, let's. Let's not talk about abortion for. For two seconds. So love it. I would love to know, like, what your favorite pastime is. Now. The caveat is it can't be about being a dad and it can't be about being a husband, because we already know that about you. Right. It's understood. It's understood. I tell that to everybody. I'm like, we know you love your family.
We know you love being a partner.
Duh. You got to give me something else. So when you're not leading a global pro life organization, what do you love to do?
[00:57:02] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you didn't mention grandfather. I just got that role in February, and that is really new for me, and I'm loving it. It's really fun. But, yeah, I certainly take your point. So I'm a reader. I love to read. I read a lot of. I like historical fiction.
[00:57:17] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:57:18] Speaker B: So I have a handful of authors. I like Grisham.
I like some of the thriller stuff, Clancy and Vince Flynn and some of those other guys. So it just.
And then, of course, I'm reading nonfiction as well, just to stay in the loop. Yeah. So if you're a reader, you probably identify with this. You have one book that you're working on, another one that you were working on, and then you have stacks of books that you're intending to read. So that's exactly where I'm at.
[00:57:46] Speaker A: Yes, I get through. Now I have transitioned to the audiobook because I.
[00:57:53] Speaker B: Is that really reading, though? That's what I'm working on.
[00:57:55] Speaker A: It is.
[00:57:56] Speaker B: Is that technically reading?
[00:57:57] Speaker A: I'm not sure it is reading.
Just because when before I was, you know, working full time and a parent and had time, I was an. I've always been an avid reader. Right. Even I was reading by kindergarten. You know, my mom is a big reader. My whole family are all readers.
And so I binge read. Right. If I'm in a book, I would take stacks. When we would go on vacation with my. My husband's family, I would literally go to the library and I get like seven books. Books. And I would read that I'd get through. I'd just be on the beach. Wherever I was, I'm reading. Right.
But I can't do that now because I have no time. So I get through about 100 books a year. I mean, I read a lot, but I do historical fiction, I think is fascinating because you not only are in a good story, but you learn so much. Like, the. The random knowledge that I've picked up about countries and history just from reading stories is so valuable. I think people definitely don't give fiction, like literary fiction enough credit in the sense that, like, you just naturally learn so much. Oh, so. So out of all of them, what would you say is your favorite? What's your favorite book that you've read?
[00:59:18] Speaker B: Well, so I'm a Tolkien fan and I've read the Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit, it's hard to say. I like the characters and I like when they play them out over multiple books.
[00:59:27] Speaker A: Yes. I love a series.
Give me a solid, like seven book series that by the end of it, I feel like these are my friends, these are people that I've gotten to know. Yeah. Oh, I love that.
[00:59:40] Speaker B: It's like a world you enter into and so you're happy to visit again at some point in the future. Yes, I agree.
[00:59:47] Speaker A: I'm always looking for the next read.
All right. I've used so much of your time. Thank you so much. So before we go, how can listeners connect with heartbeat? Where can they find you anything if they want to learn more about your work?
[01:00:04] Speaker B: Well, I appreciate that. You can always catch up with more of what we're
[email protected] that's kind of our public facing. But the one website I want to make sure everybody knows is optionline.org because we often have the opportunity to encounter someone who's facing an abortion decision, whether it's a friend, a family, church folks or co worker. And I want to make sure that they know where to find pregnancy help. So optionline.org is a locator. They can find help. They should be walking around with that information to hand to anybody so they can find pregnancy help wherever they are.
[01:00:35] Speaker A: Oh, amazing. Thank you so much.
[01:00:40] Speaker B: Thanks, Missy. I really enjoyed it. It's great to I appreciate the learning more about you and our common who knew Reverend Pat Mahoney like that's that's a common history that we have.
[01:00:50] Speaker A: I'm going to text Caitlyn as soon as I get off. Like your dad is in the middle of things Again, thanks for listening to this episode of the Centered Podcast. To find out more about the center for client safety, visit centerforclientsafety.org or you can visit us on socials at center for Clients Client Safety. See you next time.
