Episode 21 - The Complicated Intersection of Abortion and Religion with Josh Chumley

[00:00:07] Speaker A: This is Missy Martinez Stone and you're listening to the Centered Podcast, where we have unifying conversations on the divisive subject of abortion. Hello and welcome to the Centered Podcast. I am your host, Missy Martinez Stone, and today we have my good friend Josh Chumley. Josh is the co founder of the XCL Group, where he helps organizations with strategic coaching, leadership development and branding. He has a long background in pro life advocacy, having served as Chief Advancement Officer at Choice's Pregnancy center in Arizona, where he increased giving by an impressive 85% in two years. He has also held leadership roles at Alliance Defending Freedom. So needless to say, he brings a wealth of knowledge, particularly on organizational health and leadership. But today we're taking the conversation in more of a personal direction. We want to focus on why the church should speak out against abortion. Welcome, Josh. [00:01:25] Speaker B: Well, thank you for having me, Missy. It's always a great conversation with you, and this time we actually get to record it. [00:01:31] Speaker A: So that's true. [00:01:33] Speaker B: It's true what we talk about and when we're on the phone together and how passionate we both are around life, but I think it's because it's. I consider both of us, you can disagree. That's what this podcast is for sometimes, right? We're atypical in how we approach life. And honestly, I think it's probably because we're atypical in how we approach life. Our own right, our professional lives. And, you know, some of that is contrarian, but it's all for good reason and it comes with an intense amount of energy and focus and intensity. I always call myself the Eye of Sauron from Lord of the Rings. It's like once I start focusing, you know, you focus in on that because we're so passionate about why rather than just the what, right? [00:02:20] Speaker A: So I think we first connected when you were working at Choices Pregnancy center, when I had come out to Arizona to meet with the pro life leaders out there and talk about an abortion facility in the Phoenix area that was causing all kinds of problems. And, you know, we had several mutual friends when you were at adf, but I don't know if I've ever actually heard your full story of how you became involved in the pro life movement. So, like, take us back to where this all began for you. [00:02:52] Speaker B: My sister is eight years younger than me, and I was working at the Alliance Defending Freedom. And you know, that that's a whole topic we could get into about how I even wound up there. But God really wanted to get my attention and to do something because I Do believe he's gifted me with. We're going to get things done, and we're going to get them done with the right heart and the right spirit to take on the toughest issues. Well, my sister had called me and said that she had had an abortion 10 years prior, and we were pastor's kids. And again, just that comes out of left field. Yes, we've had a dysfunctional family, and I don't mind sharing that because I think it's the vulnerability that brings about what God has done through that. She. She's told that story to thousands of people now, and she's helping women with that. But it shook me enough to be like, I had no idea for a decade. I knew something was going on. She was at a Christian college at the time. She went underground. And unfortunately, my family were co conspirators to some of that and just really affected me in a way that said, you know, I gotta do something. But at the same time, while I was at adf, there was this pregnancy center that decided to take on Planned Parenthood in the state of Arizona. And it was Choices Pregnancy centers. And I thought they look like they need some help with fundraising. You know, I had done some of that at adf, and that's really what took me to go all in to the pro life movement. I think it's a pro life lifestyle of are we really going to speak the truth and do it with love? And we can get into more of that in a moment. But that's what brought me to this point, is that we're going to take the bull by the horns and get past some of the cycles of narratives and, you know, echo chambers of what makes us feel good about pro life and actually put some things into motion that make a difference. [00:04:58] Speaker A: Right, right. Is what we are doing actually working? Is it giving us results, or are we just preaching to the choir? So that's fascinating to hear because I know our podcast, I think that was released with Jesse Sutherland from aul, his story was similar. He found out that his mom had an abortion, his grandmother had an abortion, and he saw how it just impacted them so negatively and spurred him on to, like, be in this movement. And I think there's so many people that witness, you know, the destruction that it causes. And that is such a beautiful motivation. You know, I was just walking down the street in the March for Life, and I went, I think this is really important. I was 15, I think 14 or 15, and I was like, this checks out. I guess this is really important. There's a lot of people here. I think this really matters, but it's amazing to hear how everybody finds their way into this movement. But you made an interesting pivot recently and I think you just kind of touched on it a little bit. You're working for these incredible pro life organizations. We love choices, we love adf, they're great partners of ours. But then you made this bold move to start your own coaching and consulting business, the XCL Group. What really inspired you to take that leap? And then I would love for you to share a little bit more with the listeners, like what you do there. [00:06:37] Speaker B: Sure. Excel Group was really formed out of the concepts that I believe marketplace or nonprofits focus a lot on the bottom line. You know, it does take money to run a nonprofit and people in the marketplace or for profit also want to see gains. That's why they're in it. But I believe that it's an upside down pyramid, that what seemingly people want funding at the top of the pyramid when it should be leadership, health, leadership principle, application of all of these books and podcasts. There's just so much that doesn't get implemented. And then you wonder why, what happened when the funding doesn't come in or it's, you know, there's stress in the workplace and it's unhealthy. You've got an unhealthy culture. Yeah, you usually do that when the money dries up. And I don't believe that that's good stewardship at all of what God's given us. No matter what you're doing, I don't care if you're running a laundromat to running center for Client Safety. You know, you really want people to be healthy in their leadership, to then be able to generate the funding that they need to see the vision actually take action. And so within that there, there's really a trifecta of, you know, this executive and leadership coaching along with fundraising coaching and business consulting, depending on what you're in. With Kingdom Leaders, we do want to come alongside and see Kingdom leaders thrive. When I say kingdom, that means people that are following their faith, they're following their religious beliefs, but they're doing it in whatever sector. And so there's very practical pieces to both of that. And then the third piece is really about marketing and branding because again, people have a lot of fancy brands, but there's only one Chick Fil A or there's, you know, there's only one Southwest. Well, why don't we take all of that and turn it into something that says through strategic coaching, solutions and practical tools, we can actually help people, you know, with fundraising. We'll talk about that in a few minutes. But it's. We have to have a transformational approach. I'm so tired of the transaction. [00:08:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:58] Speaker B: And I'm so tired of the big galas and the. And so are the people sitting there, right? [00:09:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:05] Speaker B: They're like, yeah, I actually got 40 mailers today alone. [00:09:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:09] Speaker B: And, you know, we want to partner with people that want to see their vision and mission actually take root. And I believe that when the Bible talks about bearing fruit, he wants us to remain in that fruit. When he's chosen us, remain in it. And I believe with all of the stress or bright and shiny objects for leaders, they get distracted. We want to partner people with their passion rather than assuming they have a passion about this specific thing. It's going to take us asking some really good questions and then actually listening. [00:09:44] Speaker A: Oh, I love it. I mean, one of the things that we connected on early was organizational health. I mean, I could talk about that all day. It was one of the values that we established. Day one, I said, because I have been in the movement for a long time. I've been in the nonprofit world for a long time. And there's the old adage that you should just be. Expect to be overworked and underpaid. And we're just done. We're done with that. And if you want to see real change in whatever area you're working in, turnover is costly. You know, like, you will get the best out of your team if you value them and you treat them well. And they are our most amazing resource. And so really trying to change that narrative from the beginning of, like, we are not going to be. We're going to be a healthy organization, and we are going to be people first and focus on our team health and work, life balance and all those things. And we can't pay super high salaries yet. But listen, my team is committed. [00:10:46] Speaker B: I guarantee I would almost go to Vegas and make a bet that studies have been done. People that have a healthy culture will. Will actually agree to be paid a little bit less in a. In a mission and vision that they agree with 100%. It brings richness to your life. And here's the conviction. Anybody leading an organization that's listening to this or someone that can be of influence, think about how you react. Let's say you're a nonprofit. How you react when you get a big check that supports your mission. You're like, you're plotting and big praise. But then what if something happens and one of your team members or employees has just a great day and it emphasized what the value of your culture is? Do you do the same? Do you react the same? I would say most people don't. [00:11:37] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:11:38] Speaker B: Because we get caught in the same. It's about the money. We gotta. Yes, that's all good intent because you're trying to accomplish your mission and vision. But I think it's the organizational health and the team health and the leadership coaching that has to come is usually I get the eye roll in the beginning, and then they call me when they're like, okay, I've got an employee issue. What were your core values and your behaviors that led that to be the case? [00:12:07] Speaker A: Yeah, my number one recruiting tool right now is what I can't pay you in salary, I make up for, and mental and emotional support and unlimited time off. Like, you know, and people have agreed. You know, they take the lower salary because they're just happier. They're happier. They're. They're enjoying it. Yes, it's stressful at times, but, you know, like, again, people are our biggest resource. This is most of our budget goes. And so I want to make sure that it is an extension of my pro life values that I treat my team well. You know, Anyways, you and I could talk. We could talk about that. That's another episode. Maybe the last thing I'll say is you have already absolutely helped us. You know, development is not my strong suit. And, you know, being able to call you and you've given me such good advice and wisdom when it comes to approaching donors. And even just strategically using our time. Right. To make sure that we're spending our time doing the thing that's going to be the most effective has just been incredibly helpful. So I'll give my official endorsement. You got the thumbs up from me. Josh is great. Your organization should hire him. Thank you so much. [00:13:22] Speaker B: That's very, very kind. [00:13:23] Speaker A: All right, Humbling. Okay, so let's get into what we actually wanted to talk about. And you had brought this up when I approached you, and I thought it was fascinating. We. I really want to explore the intersection of religion, specifically Christianity and abortion. And as I was thinking about it, the topic is especially intriguing because while the pro life movement itself is largely religious, you know, predominantly made up of Catholic and non Catholic Christians, there is a reluctance for many religious leaders, many church leaders, to actually address the issue head on. So it's in my mind there's a little bit of a dichotomy I guess, happening of like, yes, we are predominantly made up of religious people, but at the same time religious institutions don't want to touch it with a 50 foot pole. So have you in your work, like noticed that hesitation as well? [00:14:32] Speaker B: 100%. And usually it's because abortion is framed as a political issue or a rights issue or my choice issue. And whether we want to admit it or not, we have bought into that and we've polarized and we've made it red and blue when it is not a political issue. This is a heart issue, this is a spiritual issue, this is a. Do we care about people? Like do. Do we really want to face the reality that we're trying to create population control? I mean, let's just have a real honest conversation. And people that talk like I talk usually are framed around Christian nationalists or you're really political, you're just. Well, I think you can even take a look at the presidential race right now and see how they're reacting to the life issue. Go ahead and figure out who's on what side of that because it's become blurred. And so I think it takes the, where we are, society, across society. We've taken the focus off of people and we've placed it into a trigger point. And so religious leaders, pastors, they see that as well. If I talk about that, then I'm going to be now quoted as Christian nationalists or seen on this side of the aisle. And I, I think that that is false and I believe that you've bought into whatever the media and society is telling you to believe about this issue. And so I experienced that heavily at Alliance Defending Freedom. My, my role there. I was the founder of a group called the Church and Ministry Alliance. Highly recommend it if you run a ministry or a church because it provides legal protection. So that's a plug for adf. And you know me starting that there with, with that group of folks, incredible people. But I, my job was to get out and share what the church should be speaking on and how to speak to it while feeling that they could be protected doing so. ADF's not in the business of telling you what to say, but there is a way to go about it with religious protections and life was one of those issues. And so unfortunately, because this is a polarizing subject, but it seems like everything is now, pastors don't want to touch it, like you said, with a 50 foot pole. But who's getting lost in the mix? The women that are hurt, the babies that are killed, the dads that are off the hook. You know, it's been this way for decades. Continue just to flywheel it like a. Like fly fishing. And no, what. I don't want to buy into that. I. I want to look at this differently about why people should speak. [00:17:27] Speaker A: Yeah, so. So your. From your experience, it had to do with how those leaders or those, you know, religious, these pastors or whoever, how they, how they would be perceived if they did speak about it. So would they say themselves they are pro life, but they didn't want to be perceived a certain way because it would have a negative impact on what they're giving their relationships? Like, what. When they're saying, I don't wanna be perceived as a Christian nationalist, I can empathize to, like, the slightest degree of. Because I approach things very similarly of like, I don't want to put up barriers. I don't want to put up. I want to be accessible. I want. I deal with this all the time, just personally, because, you know, I do not run in pro life circles. I live in the inner city. Most of my friends are not pro life. And I even say, like, I'm hesitant to tell people what I do because I know they're going to immediately make a lot of assumptions about me that are not true. And I'm like, ugh, I just don't want to deal with it. I don't want to deal with it. Right. So there's like, there's like a teeny part of me that can empathize. But it's precisely the tough conversations that help us move forward. Right. That educate us. And ignoring them only ensures that they remain unresolved, that they stay difficult, which is one of the reasons why I started this podcast. And, you know, when I do have conversations with my friends, I do, you know, when there's a relationship there, I tell them what I do, and I do it in a way that is accessible to them, where they go, you know, I don't agree with you on abortion, but that what you do makes perfect sense. [00:19:18] Speaker B: That's very true. [00:19:19] Speaker A: Yeah, we need to make. Yeah, we need to make spaces for productive and helpful conversations on difficult topics. Right. And so I'm wondering if part of the problem is not necessarily the subject matter of abortion, but maybe it's just how these leaders are approaching it or how they are talking about it. Maybe they are talking about it in a way that is not helpful. Right. That does put them in this box, you know, like, is there a way to equip them to address it in a way that is accessible to the church community. [00:19:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I completely agree with. They need to become more educated about what it is and to use some emotional intelligence and task because there are plenty of people that I could go on. I could go on either side of this issue and be like that. Yeah, you're pro life, but, man, I don't want to be pro life listening to you. [00:20:19] Speaker A: Yeah, you're a jerk. You're pro life, but you're a jerk. Right. [00:20:23] Speaker B: And any time we've discussed it at the church I attend, you know, we're talking about, okay, you know, there's women going to be in this audience that have had an abortion. So I want you to put yourself in their place because they're seeking truth and they're seeking love at this church. What did you just do? [00:20:40] Speaker A: Yep. [00:20:41] Speaker B: You turned them off to even going to get a resource to figure it out. And so there's a balance in the conversation. So again, there's two ends of the spectrum. There's a lot of truth and no grace. There's a lot of grace and no truth. [00:20:55] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. My husband says there's a ditch on both sides. Right. And somehow you have to figure out how to walk the middle of, we're going to speak the truth, but we're going to do it in a way that is empathy, first, nuanced understanding, you know? And I would say that's the heart of this podcast. When I started this podcast, I went, I just want a place for people to be able to have hard conversations and know that it's a safe place to ask hard questions and really get past all the noise and say, okay, I don't agree with you on this thing, but you're not evil. Like, you don't. You're not a terrible person. We just, you know, like being able to be nuanced and talk about the subject in a way that doesn't. It doesn't harm, do further harm, and it doesn't ostracize people. It invites them in to be like, it's okay to disagree on this stuff. Like, let's just talk. Let's have open conversations about it. Right? [00:22:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm sure you've heard that. I'm going to botch it, but it's fine. Truth without love is just mean. Love without truth is hypocrisy. And so that's what this takes, is the balance of that conversation in creating a place. And a whole nother podcast would be, you know, the art of persuasion and solid arguing is no longer allowed. It's just Gaslighting and blowing each other on social media. And I believe this falls directly in line with that. What was the main topic of the last presidential debate? [00:22:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:39] Speaker B: What we're talking about. [00:22:40] Speaker A: I had a lot of thoughts on that. [00:22:44] Speaker B: Yeah, me too. [00:22:46] Speaker A: We had a lot of thoughts on that. Talking about people who are not well informed on the issue. [00:22:53] Speaker B: That's right. [00:22:54] Speaker A: That was, that was tough to watch. [00:22:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Because. So life doesn't make you a supporter of Handmaid's Tale. And, you know, it just gets very inflammatory. [00:23:05] Speaker A: Yes. [00:23:06] Speaker B: We're not actually talking about the people that this is impacting. [00:23:09] Speaker A: Yes, yes. And so what I did, I went line by line through the debate and pulled out all the things that were said and I went, okay, this is what they are. Here's the nuance. Right. This is what they are referring to. Here's this. This is. And, but on both sides, I went, here you go. I broke it down. I was like, you guys, they. Everybody's using extremes here and no one's actually being honest about where they really stand. Like, we have to stop immediately villainizing somebody if they disagree with us on abortion. Right. So. And I think that's what happens with the, maybe the people sitting in the, in the pews and in the chairs. If the pastor starts talking about abortion and they don't agree with that, they've gone, oh, he is a terrible human being. Right. And I go, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. [00:24:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we've labeled them and we actually fall into the same trap because we're devaluing their life. [00:24:13] Speaker A: Yes. Right. Yeah. [00:24:16] Speaker B: Talk about voice. But it's someone's life. It's what, it's what they. Yes, they may believe that, but that's still a person. And you know, it's all of these narratives out there that, well, conservatives don't want to care for the baby after. You just want to. Okay, well, what are the practical, practical solutions within that from birth until someone passes again. But we don't talk a lot about that because it's all politically motivated. [00:24:44] Speaker A: Right. That's what. Like when we started center for Client Safety, I mean, we were intentionally bipartisan. Right. We work with everybody. We don't take any stance politically. We don't take any stance really. Like, we only focus on abortion. Right. And when I have done interviews with media and I tell them that I'm like, oh, we are not. Nothing about what we do is political. They're surprised. They're surprised to find out that I am not like a die hard conservative Republican. I'm like, I Am not. You know, and they just. It's. It's like they short circuit because in their mind, they've decided this is what a pro life leader looks like. And they want every excuse to, like, write me off. And I go, what I do is not political. All I'm doing is enforcing basic medical, health and safety standards on medical facilities. Like, it is not political. So how do we. How. Because that's, that's something that, you know, when I was at Student for Life, I heard all the time too. It's like that abortion is political. How do we pull that those narratives apart? Like, how do we help people understand that? While it is a predominant topic in, like, prisal at the presidential debate, they talked about abortion. It is at the forefront of political discussion, but it itself is not political. How do. How do we get people to separate those things? [00:26:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So since we are talking about church and religious leaders, does the church actually have a solution? Does the church actually have practical means to serve people that are lost in looking for options that fall into this place? Because as much as we want to go, well, you should just be celibate and you should just stop having sex. [00:26:47] Speaker A: That's not real life. [00:26:49] Speaker B: Come on. [00:26:50] Speaker A: Come on. [00:26:51] Speaker B: And sometimes I take issue with some of that narrative in the pro life movement. I'm like, I don't. You can delete this out if you want, but if we go, let's make abortion unthinkable. Okay, well, let's make sin unthinkable. [00:27:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:27:07] Speaker B: You know it's right. My motivation is if the thought comes, what is the truth of the matter around even just how a woman's body works and how that baby's body works and how. Yeah, it just gets so lost and blurred that we're not even focusing on the facts anyway. And I just think that that's where pastors and religious leaders go and churches go, is they go. That's too much to figure out. It's. This is the term that I hear. It's a complicated issue. Fair point is it is. [00:27:41] Speaker A: Right. Which is why you should help people navigate it. If it's complicated, teach people how to navigate it. [00:27:50] Speaker B: Right. The AX Church that was formed in. In the Book of Acts, they came together as a community to help form the church. And I believe that is what has broken down, is that certain things are okay to talk about. Certain things are okay to give money to. Other things that's unspoken, keep it tucked away. Especially for. There's so many women that I've met, Missy, that are in their 60s and 70s never talked about the abortion they had because back then it was even more of a, you know, this is just healthcare. This is just what you do. And I don't believe we're pulling that out enough. Here are some practical resources, and yes, pregnancy centers can be a part of that, but if it doesn't start in the church as a. As a. As the place to go, I believe that society will continue to lower the standard of valuing human life. [00:28:43] Speaker A: Mm. Yeah. I mean, I know you and I have talked about, like, yes, leaders need to be well informed, equipped. They need to be discussing abortion. But you're taking it a step further because you're arguing like, the church leaders need to be vocal advocates of the pro life movement. They need to be publicly championing this cause. So, like, take me through your thought process there. Like, not only are we needing to create that space altogether to teach their congregations to navigate a complicated subject, to give women the resources they need for healing, to get women the resources they need to not make that decision, but they should be at the forefront of this cause. Yeah. And I think a big part of it, too, is that especially if you're in the church culture, I would say the Catholic or the evangelical church culture, those are very integrated into your life. Right. You're pulling so much of your core values, and the things that impact your life are so connected to this place, to this community, to these leaders and these pastors. And if they lead the way on correctly discussing this subject, of correctly incorporating the issue of abortion into their culture, I think there would be a natural impact on the people there to be able to, you know, like, a church could be 20 people, it could be 5000. But it's like you just changed the Dynamics of how 5,000 people can now correctly navigate a really complicated subject. And I'll be. I could share my own story. Like, I. Thankfully, I moved to the D.C. area when I was in high school. My dad retired from the military, and he did what former military people do, and he went to work for the government. Right. He went to work for the Department of Defense. So we move up to D.C. and we're living in an area where, you know, a lot of people are commuting. And my church happened to have a number of pro life leaders who attended there. Like David B. Wright, literally lived around the corner, you know, like Tina Whittington at Students for Life. I mean, just so many people. This was when I was 13 or 14 years old, and thankfully, I was a part of an evangelical church that was very vocal on abortion. And that. That is rare. Especially in the early 2000s, like that is. That's rare. [00:31:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:33] Speaker A: And every year, part of our youth group, like, calendar was they took us to the March for Life. Like, that was just understood, you're gonna go to the March for Life if you're a part of this youth group. And that's when I had that impactful moment of realizing how important this is, and it changed the trajectory of my life. Now I've been in the pro life movement now full time for over a decade. Um, but I was always so appreciative that it was just understood in our church culture that this is where we stood. And they were okay. They were not afraid to talk about it. And now it was never condemning, but there was just not that same fear around it. And it was just like, oh, yeah, it just felt normal. It just felt normal that this is just something that you talk about. And it set up so many of us to, again, be able to not only address the issue, but now, hello, here I am 20 years later working in the movement. And so I think there's a. I think there's a assumption that, like, if I talk about abortion, it's going to be all bad. Right. It's going to be all negative reactions. And I just don't think that's the case. You know, like, I saw a lot of positive outcome from the way our church leaders engaged it and challenged us and just normalized it, normalized that it was part of the discussion, that it was just something that obviously we're pro life, like, you know. Right. And just educated us on the issue. And I was able to. Then I kind of became like the friend in my friend group that, like, if you had a question about abortion, like, you talk to Missy, you asked Missy. She's the one that knows everything about it. And, you know, I think people can need to change the narrative here that, like, yeah, there might be some pushback, but there also could be some really good outcomes. Right. There could be some really positive things that come from taking on a difficult subject, you know? [00:33:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I completely, completely agree how we change the conversation. And it's okay for if there's church leaders listening or people attending church, it's okay to talk about this. And again, depending on your tone and the words you use to call out, you can call out sin, but how do you do that? And that's usually also a whole squad of churches that don't want to call it out because it feels judgmental when all of us sin, religious, whatever you want to call it. It's. We all make those mistakes. And so changing the narrative looks like the woman at the well, he meets her, recommend everyone go look that up. And he didn't start with, you're in sin. He started with, I want to know you. And what if we actually emulated that? How would that change in the church? How would that change the conversation? And I just think it would meet a deep desire that everyone has to be known and seen. And if anything, guess what Planned Parenthood's doing in their rhetoric and propaganda? You can be known and seen. Yeah, well, the church needs to own that. [00:35:06] Speaker A: So. [00:35:06] Speaker B: So wake up. Wake up and start telling people who they are, that they are valued and they can be loved, and that they guess what, they don't have to immediately, everything has changed in my life, and no more sin. Good luck with that. But repent, accept him, and create churches that are places of refuge rather than places of. Of judgment and heat, or churches that don't say a word about it. [00:35:36] Speaker A: Right. I think a big part of feeling seen, and this is something that's come up a few times with other pro life leaders when we're talking about messaging and stuff, is, you know, I challenged some of them because I said, you've created this messaging, but it sounds like it's for other pro life people, and it's not really addressing why people have ended up at the position they have when it comes to abortion. So it's like, people want to feel seen and heard. And I go, okay, let's figure out. Because if you support abortion, the average person, they don't support abortion because they're just an evil person that wants to kill children. Right. It's usually because they're afraid. They came from a background of trauma. They feel unsafe, they don't have the resources, and so they're worried about not having enough. Like, and so almost it's like if you start the conversation with, hey, I know this is really scary, and it sounds really scary that Planned Parenthood is saying women might die if they don't have access to abortion. That's really scary. And I can understand why you would not want women to die. And that is okay that you don't want women to die. Now let's actually talk about, like, does abortion, not having access to abortion cause women to die? You know, it's like, people just want to be seen. They just want their positions and their feelings affirmed, you know, because if I just scream at you that abortion is murder, that's not going to change your mind. Right. Like, you have to get to the heart of the issue. And I think that's another way that churches could be so poised to, like, you know, these people, like, you are intimately involved in their lives. You are their spiritual leaders. Like, what is driving them? What is motivating them. Right. Like, talk about that stuff, and then you'll probably deal with the abortion stuff naturally. Right. Like, people just, they are not arriving at these decisions because they are diabolical. Right. So, like, let's actually get to the heart of what is really motivating them. That's my soapbox. [00:37:58] Speaker B: Yep. No, we. We do see people the same way, Missy, which is people are. Are valued. And. [00:38:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:07] Speaker B: The pro life movement doesn't talk enough about what happens after. [00:38:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:15] Speaker B: You know, at Choices, there was a woman that came in and she did decide to keep her baby. Well, three years later, she came back in, you know, seemed to be okay, but she was back for another pregnancy test and she had a three year old with her. And so she went back and spoke to the nurses. And I think in the pro life movement, we want to see that as let. It's incredible. Yes, it's incredible. But then she looked at the nurse and said, all of you told me this would be easy. You told me that this would be the best decision I ever made, and I'm pregnant again and I don't know what to do. [00:39:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:03] Speaker B: So it's just a really good story to. It's very sobering on what we're saying, what are the messages we're sending and what are the practical resources that happen after. And again, I think I've made my point known that it starts with the church. And I would say a lot of churches struggle in that area. [00:39:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I do have one more thought, and this is kind of what instigated this conversation, you know, because I tend to be less religious. I have a very, you know, I told you, I have a very complicated relationship with religion because of my own trauma and experience in the church. And I'm working, I'm working through it. But, you know, I do feel pushback for myself sometimes. Of. Is there, Is there a downside to linking your religious beliefs to the issue of abortion in that way of possibly, like, alienating people who don't share those beliefs, like, making it harder to change their minds on the issues? Like, if we really doubled down and said, every church, you need to be championing this, and they took us at our word. Is there a downside of we just made the issue of abortion so religious that it becomes even more, even harder for people who are not religious to consider it. You understand what I'm saying? [00:40:40] Speaker B: I do. And I think that's going to really depend on if you're going to act like a Pharisee from, you know, the New Testament and how you interact and how. Because to be really honest, I don't even like the word religious. [00:40:55] Speaker A: Right. [00:40:56] Speaker B: Gives me a weird, a weird feeling being a pastor's kid in those types of things. [00:41:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:01] Speaker B: So to me, it's about the relationship rather than religion. And if the relationship is at the center, we're going to have hard conversations, we're going to have loving conversations. We're going to be able to talk to people from every walk of life. And I would. This is the wrong podcast for, for this subject. But are you going to sit next to a transgender at your church and be okay with that? [00:41:21] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:22] Speaker B: Are you going to be okay with that? [00:41:24] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:25] Speaker B: And I would say a lot of people would be like, I don't, I don't know, I don't know about that. [00:41:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:30] Speaker B: And I would say we put abortion minded women or however we want to frame people that are looking for answers and they're stuck or they're, they're, you know, on the fringe of certain cultures of the church. How do we bring them in? And I believe that that is the answer. I don't. Religious, non religious. We shouldn't make it difficult to enter in and actually hear love and truth. Practical. I keep saying practical because a lot of times Christians say, well, you just need to pray about it. You just need more faith. Well, you shouldn't just, you just shouldn't do that. What, like, at what point do we actually explain what all that means? [00:42:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:17] Speaker B: At what point do we go deeper and we actually take on, you know, again, I'm going back into that. I'm a Christ follower. So what does it look like to follow him and become more like him each day? [00:42:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:31] Speaker B: And until that happens, I think we're completely missing the boat. And I believe that we are in danger in the church of. There's a very scary scripture if you study it, where he says, you did all of these things in my name. You healed miracles, all the things you prophesied, he said, but I never knew you. There's two different camps there. The word knew you in the Greek means intimacy. Were you intimate? Did you get to know me as Jesus? And were you able to go out and share that same with other people? The whole basis of this is that we need to be cultivating Our relationship with Jesus for the sake of others, not just so we can feel. Well, I'm saved now, and I'm good to go. I'm going to be in heaven. So I'm now giving you a really good sermon, but maybe that's not what your podcast listeners. [00:43:28] Speaker A: Oh, I love it. No, I love it. Hey, listen, what I want, because what I love about this platform that I have and what I've been given is that I love that you and I are in different places in our lives on this subject. Right. Because it allows for a more holistic, more comprehensive discussion. You know, it's not two people talking at each other who just agree on everything. We're not in an echo chamber. You know, it's okay. And you are okay with the fact that I have a complicated relationship with the religion, whereas I'm okay with the fact that you love practicing Christianity and you feel empowered to motivate the church. Great. Do that. You know, because I know you, and I know your intentions, and I know your heart, and I can go, that's great. You know, and I've had anything other. [00:44:26] Speaker B: Than, hey, we're passionate about this, and we have a really good rapport. Hey, I want to know about your family. You want to know about my like, Right. It goes back to society not being able to have civil conversation on what we disagree on. And I believe also that that needs to start in the church. Big surprise. But if that is truly the body of Christ, how are we going to emulate that? And that often doesn't happen. [00:44:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:55] Speaker B: Goes back, you know, even in nonprofits and organizations. How are you going to emulate how to have healthy conflict when you're disagreeing? There's just not a lot of it happening, mainly because of ego pride. And I'm right. [00:45:07] Speaker A: Yep. Yep. Everyone should go to therapy. Number one, everyone find a licensed professional therapist so you can have healthy conflict resolution. Yeah. A couple episodes ago, actually hasn't come out yet by the time we're recording, but I had Peter range on who is a Dear. I mean, one of the people in the movement I love most. I mean, he's become one of my dearest friends. And I laughed because our conversation was navigating complicated election. Complicated conversations around the election. Because it is fever pitch right now. Right. It is crazy out there. And I looked at him and I'm like, peter, we love each other so much. You are a devout Catholic white man, and I am a minority woman with a complicated relationship with religion. That's probably center. Like, we could not be More different. And yet we have so much respect for each other. And some of those friendships are my favorite. Allison Centifante and I, same thing. And we were texting during the debate. I was like, what do you think? And she was like, what do you think? And we had very different perspectives. But it was so fun just to be able to talk about that with people that are. And we challenge each other too. She really has been challenging me on why I'm landing on. So she's like, help me understand why you're landing this way. And I'm like, okay, you know what? I really do want to think, I really do want to think about that stuff, you know, And I push back on her sometimes. And she's like, okay, I want to really consider that. Like, I love it, I love it. But I love it because I've done six or seven years of internal work to get to the point where I could have healthy conversations and disagree and be in disagreement with people and not be personal and not be explosive. You know what I mean? But when we can get there, it could be so life giving. [00:47:20] Speaker B: Disagreements don't have to turn into character assassinations. [00:47:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we have fun. We have fun. We have really interesting conversations. All right, well, before we close out, I do love to take kind of the last little bit and shift the conversation to what do you like to do off the clock. The caveat is it can't be about being a dad and it can't be about being a husband, because that's a given. We know that, we know that about you. We know that about all of our guests is that they love their children and their spouse. [00:47:58] Speaker B: So what I was going to say is I love my wife and I'm just kidding. I do love my wife. But we, we actually like to get out and do hiking. So if anybody's been to Arizona, you gotta check out Sedona. Some of the most epic hikes in the country. And so we get out there and just enjoy nature, you know, this time we got to get further north because it's, it's pretty, pretty warm here in Arizona. But I just love to be out and just be at peace. [00:48:29] Speaker A: Do you have dogs that you like, take with you or is it just family? [00:48:32] Speaker B: Like, I do have a dog, but I would never take her, take her with me. She attacks dogs at the dog park. I don't even want to know what would happen out on the trail. But we mainly, me and my wife, my kids kind of give me the eye roll because of what age groups they're in the late teens, I'll drag them along sometimes. But it's just such an incredible state for getting outdoors. And so I recommend anybody do that. You know, there's people I've met that lived here for 40 years, and they've never been out on a trail. And, you know, I take that one step, one step further. This may turn off some of your listeners, but I do elk hunting in the fall. [00:49:09] Speaker A: Huh. Interesting. [00:49:11] Speaker B: So I do a lot of hiking with that as well, up near the Grand Canyon. It is just so epic just to be. [00:49:17] Speaker A: Do you go through, like, the whole process? Like, you get it processed, you can put it in the freezer, you eat it. [00:49:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:49:23] Speaker A: See, I'm from. Like, I'm from. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, see, yeah, I grew up in the Deep south, so, like, hunting is just. [00:49:33] Speaker B: Yeah, so did I. [00:49:34] Speaker A: A way of life. You know what? So when I was looking through your stuff, like for your bio and stuff, I saw. I think it was on your Twitter, you said something about all things Seminoles. Have we talked about the fact that you're a Florida State fan? [00:49:48] Speaker B: No. [00:49:50] Speaker A: How have we not talked about that? You know, my entire family is, like, from the Florida Panhandle, and they all went to Florida State. Yes. Go. No, man. [00:50:00] Speaker B: This is a whole thing. Like, I've had to pray about my relationship lately with the Seminoles, you know? [00:50:07] Speaker A: Ah, it's tough. Okay. So my mom's side is Florida State. My dad's side is Auburn. Right. [00:50:14] Speaker B: Okay. [00:50:15] Speaker A: And I just am like. [00:50:19] Speaker B: Yeah, this season is it. I really have had to have, like, a heart to heart with myself. I got pretty. Pretty depressed after that first loss. [00:50:28] Speaker A: I mean, same. I watched our second game. Auburn. We watched our second game, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I can't do this again. I can't. [00:50:36] Speaker B: This is a Saturday. So I was born in Tallahassee, grew up in Florida and then Georgia and Tennessee. [00:50:41] Speaker A: So, Yeah, I don't know how we've never talked about that. Yeah, all my family, huge. Everybody went to Florida State. All my cousins, my grandparents, like, all of them went to Florida State. [00:50:53] Speaker B: Once again, go back to a game. [00:50:56] Speaker A: I think the culture around, like, the football games with the horse and the set, I think it's the most beautiful in all of. I just. In the. The chant, I'm just like, there is something about that last week, and people. [00:51:15] Speaker B: Came unhinged, which they should. So they're bringing it back this week again. [00:51:20] Speaker A: It's just. It's such a cool. Yeah, I'm ready for my foot One of my football teams to finally be good again. [00:51:28] Speaker B: I've been to an Auburn game. It's. It's a great stadium. [00:51:31] Speaker A: Wasn't it. It was in the. Wasn't it in the. It was. When I was in college. Didn't Auburn in Florida State play in the championship? [00:51:39] Speaker B: They did. [00:51:40] Speaker A: Yeah. That was an Interesting. Yep. [00:51:42] Speaker B: 2014 is actually when it was played, but it was the 2013 season. [00:51:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. No, no. 20. Was it. [00:51:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:53] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. You're right. You're right. [00:51:54] Speaker B: Was just born, and I remember she was two months old. I'm holding her, like, 11:30 at night watching this game. [00:52:01] Speaker A: Yeah. So that was a really fun game for our family because we had a split. A split house. But I'm like, I'm ready. I'm ready to have a good team to root for again. [00:52:11] Speaker B: So we have way more than I ever thought. [00:52:15] Speaker A: Look at that, man. Yeah. You get me back in Florida, and all of a sudden I just sound the most redneck. Yeah. [00:52:22] Speaker B: My kids are always like, why does your voice change? [00:52:26] Speaker A: Listen, listen. [00:52:29] Speaker B: Okay. Get over it. [00:52:31] Speaker A: Give me some okra. Give me some grits. Give me some fresh seafood. [00:52:37] Speaker B: People don't know about okra. [00:52:39] Speaker A: Oh, man. So good. All right, well, we can talk about. [00:52:42] Speaker B: We're Gonna celebrate our 23rd anniversary starting this. I was supposed to leave tomorrow, and I was gonna go to the Memphis game. [00:52:51] Speaker A: Oh. [00:52:52] Speaker B: We were going to go to Destin and. [00:52:55] Speaker A: Oh, man. So you're not going to go now? [00:52:58] Speaker B: Cancel. No, I'm not. [00:52:59] Speaker A: Oh, no, I'm not trying to be. [00:53:02] Speaker B: But the stadium's getting worked on, and it's just. It's. [00:53:04] Speaker A: Yeah, save it. Save it for when you can, like, really appreciate it. [00:53:08] Speaker B: I went to the Clemson game, like, two, three years ago. So anyway, it's close to my heart. I kind of hope we end up in that area again one day. [00:53:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. My family lives in Gulf Shores now, so we get down there pretty regularly, so. Man, so fun. See, I love. That's why I love this portion of the podcast, because I just learn so many amazing things about the people I talk to that I don't ever get to know because we're too busy talking about pro life stuff and abortion. I'm like, who are you as a person? So now I know all this amazing stuff. So go, Noles. You're amazing. So thankful for you. So thankful for your voice in the movement. And remember, if you want amazing leadership and organizational coaching and fundraising help, call Josh. I'll put your information in the show notes. Anything else you want to add before we close out? [00:54:07] Speaker B: Well, I just want to encourage you as the leader of this organization, you know that doing this good work is going to take time. So don't get discouraged. And the people out there that are involved in this, you just have to stay focused. This is not an easy road. And thank you so much for supporting me and this organization I've launched. We're truly in it for leaders like you. [00:54:32] Speaker A: Oh, it's very kind. Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us today. Remember, episode drop every other Friday and are available for everyone to hear. So help us spread the word by rating and reviewing and sharing it with your friends. And don't forget to buy your next bag of coffee using our link to seven weeks Coffee in the show notes. So for more information about the amazing work center for Client Safety is doing, you can visit centerforclientsafety.org we just launched a brand new website that is. Thank you. I am so proud of it. You can also find us on socials at center for Client Safety. You can find me on socials. Missy Martina Stone. See you next time.