Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: This is Missy Martinez Stone, and you're listening to the centered podcast where we have unifying conversations on the divisive subject of abortion.
Hello and welcome to the Centered podcast. I'm your host, Missy Martinez Stone. And today we are going to talk to Jesse Sutherland, the federal policy director at Americans United for Life. Jesse joined Americans United for Life in 2019 and previously served as project manager for research and investigations and as a legal assistant. He also worked under Congressman Pete Olson. So as you can probably guess, we are going to talk about policy today, but more specifically how we as a movement can work towards not only ending abortion, but working across the aisle to address the root cause of abortion. Welcome, Jesse.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: Hey, happy to be here, missy.
[00:01:10] Speaker A: So I'm really excited to get into our conversation about policy and especially the projects that you're working on right now. But I was reading your bio to prepare for today and it says that you worked in an H vac company, then you were in the Middle east helping syrian refugees. I mean, it was very eclectic. So how did you end up working in the pro life movement on federal policy?
[00:01:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. I had kind of a weird way of getting here.
So after I spent time in the Middle east with syrian refugees and also before that I was in Mozambique doing humanitarian relief work and also in India.
And then I came home and I didn't have anything to do. I thought I was going back to the Middle east. And then I, that door closed and I just became an H Vac technician with a political science degree. And around that time was like, I think it was 2014 or 2015.
My mother has struggled with clinical depression since before I was born. And she was in a really bad place. And I felt inspired to just ask her if she had ever had an abortion. I wasn't really pro life at the time. Too much. I kind of didn't, I didn't think about abortion much at all, to be honest.
I was kind of into politics because of my political science degree. But I just felt inspired to ask her this. And she started crying. And for like the next 3 hours she told me her story.
And it's kind of hard to, you know, do, do what you, you've done for, for a long time. After hearing the story of my mom.
[00:02:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: And so long story short, my, my mom shared that she was a 26 year old flight attendant. She was beautiful. She met a businessman at 30,000ft and he took her to Cafe Dumont in New Orleans during a layover. One thing led to another, they had sex and a few weeks later, she found out she was pregnant. And she calls him up and says, hey, I'm pregnant. She was also, she was really excited. She was nervous. This was her first child.
And she said, you know, would you have time to chat? And he said, well, I have a layover in Norfolk, Virginia in three days, so come pick me up at the terminal. So she goes by three days later and picks him up, and he sits down in the passenger seat and hands her $300 and says, you need to get an abortion.
Said goodbye, never heard from him or saw him again, and left alone and abandoned. My mom was taken by my grandma to a hospital to get a procedure, which I don't think my grandma knew. It was abortion. It was an abortion, which is wild, because later on that day, my mom shared the story about my grandma, who also had an abortion, who shared with my mom on her deathbed 54 years after it happened. My biological granddad took my grandma to a hotel room in the late forties to get an abortion because he wasn't, quote unquote, ready for children.
And at 19 years old, she was in a hotel room getting an abortion.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: And it was probably illegal at that point.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: Yeah. This was in Smithville, North Carolina.
And anyways, in recounting the story to my mom, she said she called the doctor the butcher for the rest of her life because she had the effects that it had on her body.
But then also she had about seven or eight miscarriages after that.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Oh, that's devastating.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's what, you know, it was kind of an invitation into the movement. It's like, you can't do this. You can't be the same person after you hear that. So that's my story. I will share, too.
My wife, my now wife at the time was my girlfriend. She's such a thoughtful person and she's amazing. And she said, hey, Jesse, I just don't think the abortion, that the pro choice movement's really about abortion. And I was like, wait, what do you mean? And she said, I actually think it's women feeling powerless in a society like ours and women who have been abandoned like your mom or have been coerced like your grandma, or have been abused or raped, and they feel absolutely powerless and they grab abortion and they think it's power. Right. And the reality is, right, abortion doesn't give them power. It's not empowering. It actually empowers men and abusers.
And it was eye opening for me because it kind of just put in perspective a woman's experience. And I think moving forward in the pro life movement, we have to start to acknowledge the pain, the experience, and the generational trauma of women. We'll just keep just spinning our wheels.
One example, missy, of that is at the Supreme Court, at the Dobbs decision or the Dobbs arguments. If you just stood back and listened to both sides argue and had their music and all their speakers going, the reality is that 90% of what they said was pretty much the same.
It was about protecting women. It was about women's rights. It was about freedom, all these kinds of things.
But what we're disagreeing on is the issue of abortion, right?
[00:07:14] Speaker A: What is the solution?
[00:07:15] Speaker B: Is the solution, right?
[00:07:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Michael Kenney and I were talking a couple of podcasts ago, and he brought up the point that the foundation of the abortion industry, or the message that abortion is this magical answer for women, it's so empowering, was actually rooted and started by predominantly two men that were. One was a serial exploiter and one was making money. It was the people that were. That started that messaging campaign that infiltrated into kind of the feminist, because, you know, early feminists were not pro abortion. They understood, if we are going to be fully accepted as women, we need to be accepted as women. And what women bring and not have to change ourselves to fit into a society for men, which is essentially what abortion does, is you become like man to.
To move forward instead of forcing society to adjust to us so that we can be fully ourselves. And when you look at the people who perpetuated the abortion as, like, the solution, it was people that were exploit, you know, exploiting women, making money, had the racial, you know, the racist roots.
And when you peel back those layers, you see that this was never really about empowerment. And I think that's the biggest lie here, is that. And I think you hit the nail on the head. This is, the women that we work with are, like your mom, have these horrific experiences, and nothing about it was empowering to them.
And that part to me is. Is so devastating because they're being victimized by the industry that's claiming to serve them. And I think you're totally right about both of us want the same thing.
You know, we.
I think with the recent, like, EMtala ruling in Idaho, I was reading through, you know, the opinions, and I was talking to my team, and I said, nobody wants women to die.
We all want the same thing. We all want the same thing. Nobody wants women to die.
But both sides go on this, like, defensive posture, throwing it back to the other. That you want women to die? Nobody wants women to die. But what we can't agree on is what that looks like. You know, what disprotecting them really look like.
And I think that's where a lot of we can get into the policy of, like, what does protecting women on a policy level look like in order to avoid this huge gap where we can't hear each other. Right? Like, I just think the Emtala ruling was such a clear picture of our inability to be nuanced and have conversations with each other because we're all saying the same thing. Right?
You know, Americans united for life. It's a fantastic organization. They were actually some of our first meetings when the idea of reprotection at the time, that's what we were called, was getting started because, like, we saw how close what we do at center for client Safety is tied to policy. Right? Like, where you guys are creating and helping pass legislation. We're on the enforcement end. Right? So what does that policy look like in everyday operations? Like, and what we discovered was, even though a policy is being passed, it doesn't necessarily a guarantee that it's going to be enforced. Like, everybody wants to believe the best.
We want to believe that we live in this just world, that if a policy is passed, like, well, if we pass the law, then people are going to do the right thing.
But that has widely not been the case. And the people that are paying the price are these women that we're supposed to be protecting. So why do you think that that gap exists in the policy world?
[00:11:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the first thing I would probably say is that lawmakers in many ways are detached from enforcement. Right.
I mean, this has to be a holistic approach, right.
Not just with law enforcement or policy, but also, like, agencies, also, women also add counsel. Right? Like promoting these policies before they go into place, actually educating medical professionals. Right.
[00:12:26] Speaker A: That's been a huge issue on our end. We have had to educate enforcement agencies on a new law. Like, they had no idea that they were the enforcement mechanism. And I was like, nobody told you that your office was now responsible for this? Cool, cool, cool, cool.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's surreal, really. But these folks are focused on a thousand different things, right? And they have to be educated. And I think too many times these laws go into effect without educating first. And I think we have to be cognizant of that and the importance of education before passing legislation and having proper grace period to do that. Right.
You know, my job before federal policy director was a long title if I can remember it, the project manager for research and investigations, and we put together this book called Unsafe, and basically it was a FOIA, like 20,000 pages we went through of foie state agencies that regulate abortion clinics, and what we found were atrocious things. Like, I mean, we're talking about, like, abortionists using the same utensils without washing them on two different women. We're talking about, like, bloody seats, just really unsafe and unsanitary situations for women if they do make the unfortunate choice of abortion, allow them to be safe when they do it. That was the argument.
But the reality is it was eye opening for me. And the question is still in my mind, why are we not enforcing the law? Why are we not shutting these places down? No matter if it was mean, if this, if this was a colonoscopy center, it would have been shut down long ago. Right.
And I think it's just because the abortion distortion. Right. I think that's part of it. I think that there's so many folks that have different axes to grind, and they protect, you know, these clinics. You know, we already know that planned parenthood in many ways is very popular. Even with, with women who have, who have gone there to get an abortion and had a bad experience. They still, they have an emotional connection to them. Right. So it's like, it's hard to navigate that in policy. And I think we just need good, humble, compassionate leaders to start enforcing the law.
[00:15:14] Speaker A: And that doesn't look like wrong people. Yeah. And willing to really educate themselves on what is needed. And I think, you know, we have had the privilege of, we're at the point now where we're a 501, so we can't lobby. You know, we advise and we educate. But we've had multiple state leaders, governor's offices, legislators call us directly and say, how do we do this better? And I think that's necessary if we're going to make any progress, is these leaders have to understand, like, you're not an expert in everything, and you need to be leaning on those people who are those experts and have the humility to say, we need to close these loopholes or we need to fix these gaps. And I've really appreciated the leaders that have called us and have said, how do we had one? The governor's office literally call me and say, when we showed them the huge disparity between the laws on their books and the enforcement, they literally called me and they're like, okay, how do we enforce our regulations better? And I was like, you know, like, here you go, here's the list.
Because what we didn't anticipate when we started this organization was that there was like a downstream impact of our work. Like, our focus has been on bridging that gap between enforcement and the laws on the books and the enforcement of it. But we see the loopholes and the ways that the regulatory agencies and the abortion facilities get around the rules. Because when we go and look at a violation and we're looking at the code sometimes, like, they get off on a technicality, right? So, for example, one state we are working in requires that abortion facilities have transfer agreements. But the law doesn't explicitly say that you have to show proof via documentation, right, of that agreement. It just says you have to have them. So the licensing agency just put a box on that you have to check. Right. Without any further information. And the local pro life advocates discovered that abortion facilities were checking that box and just about having these agreements because there was no follow up, you know, on the side of the agency to confirm that what they were saying is true. But by via letter of the law, they did. They did what they said. And so I'm curious, because I've only ever worked in the pro life world, like, is this a common issue with policy, like, where people are only following the exact letter of the law and they find every way to like, like, is this something that is happening outside of abortion politics?
[00:18:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I've definitely seen that a lot. I think on the federal level, you know, when it comes to all of these life protecting amendments or even statutes and permanent law, you know, an administration that's a pro abortion, like the one we have now, you know, they just follow the, they do the minimum on those. Yeah, they follow the law in the most minimum fashion. And sometimes they even, you know, write regulations and rules and do DOJ opinions that say, oh, you know, this isn't really, you know, it doesn't say abortion, but it means abortion or, you know, vice versa, I think on the state level, you know, it goes back to the education. Right. Like I've heard of. I've heard of different examples where doctors won't and the doctors are just not educated.
[00:19:17] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:19:19] Speaker B: And that presents a whole lot of problems for women who present with pre prom or issues like that.
[00:19:27] Speaker A: So, yeah, that's been a big issue is, like, we talk when we're in the state, like, when we're talking about states that have really strict abortion laws or have essentially made abortion illegal, all of them have life of the mother exceptions. Like, it goes back to what I was saying about Emtala, like, nobody wants women to die, right? Nobody. Nobody. But the abortion industry goes, if you restrict abortion, women will die. And we go, no, they won't. Right? But because that's become so ingrained in their narrative. And I think, like, so we're, I'm in Kentucky and the, after roe was overturned, they did a constitutional amendment. They attempted to do a constitutional amendment here to say, like, abortion is not in our constitution. Like, let's go ahead and do that. And everybody assumed, oh, it's Kentucky, you know, they're going to vote for that, right? Because nobody wants everybody's pro life in Kentucky. It failed. And a huge part of that was that confusion over, well, if we make abortion, abortions already illegal here and we take this extra step, like, are women going to die? And that goes down to Leah and I were talking, Leah Jacobson. Cause she, her focus is on, like, you know, maternal health and women getting the services they need in the medical world. And we're looking at this going, if a doctor doesn't save your life when you present with a life threatening situation, then they are a bad doctor.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: That's medical malpractice.
[00:21:05] Speaker A: Right, right. But then they want to blame the politics, right? And we're going, well, that's just bad medicine. Like, of course you should save her. And again, that gets back to our inability to really talk to each other and agree on what we need to have on the books and what these definitions mean. I think another big point of contention has been, like, the medical definition of abortion and then the legal definition of abortion, because in the medical world, a miscarriage is called a spontaneous abortion, right? Like, that's just the term, the medical term for any pregnancy that is ended before 20 weeks, right. Cause then it turns to stillbirth. But the legal definition of abortion is different. And so being able to actually have the nuance to say, like, no, we're not talking about miscarriages. We're not talking about ectopic pregnancies. That should just be a given. But people want to read these codes and just absolutely assume the worst and assume, and do, again, do minimum, like you said, do the minimal possible. But like, who's really paying the price here?
Who is paying the price?
[00:22:30] Speaker B: Women.
Yeah.
[00:22:32] Speaker A: And that's the part that I just, I cannot understand is that they are, this industry is saying, no, we're doing this to protect women. But the women that you are saying you are protecting are the ones that are harmed by your politics, by your inability to see this for what it is and regulate it in a reasonable way.
[00:22:54] Speaker B: We can do better. Missy, go ahead.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: No, go ahead. You're good.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: I was just gonna say we can do better at talking about abortion, too, right?
I mean, pro abortion movement loves that kind of confusion, right?
[00:23:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:08] Speaker B: And I think. I think a lot of them are just. Are confused themselves, just like many American. Many Americans, even people in the pro life movement when it comes to definitions.
But I think the politics of it is that's when it gets a little nefarious, right? And they use that to kind of fear monger and kind of get a. Get the things that they want, get the votes they want. And, you know, in many ways, bag definitions of abortion can also include c section. I mean, this is what we're talking about. But when we're talking about abortion, we're talking about elective induced abortion. I mean, that we need really good definitions in our laws. We need really good clear.
When we have media interviews or when we write things, we need to clearly say we are talking about elective induced abortion. And, you know, that that is not miscarriage management. That is not caring for a woman who is presenting with pre prom or.
[00:24:06] Speaker A: Things like that, or a stillbirth or. Because I had one. I was listening to a podcast, and a us congressperson was on this podcast, and she's been a big voice for the abortion side. And she was talking about Emtala, and she said, if a woman shows up in an emergency room with a dead fetus, she cannot get to help. And I went, that's, like, blatantly false.
That's where I'm like, you are a congressperson that is supposed to be educated on these things. And even she was spreading blatant misinformation. And I was really frustrated. Cause I just said, like, this is the problem. This is the problem is that there's so much confusion, like, around these. Around these laws. And like I said, the women are the ones that. But then we get blamed, right?
So after Roe was overturned, right? Like, we. A lot of people thought that this would make the pro life movement easier, right? Especially on the policy level, because they went, now states can regulate abortion, right? Like, as they see fit. That's great. But it's actually made things a lot more difficult. And I think what we are. What we are talking about is one of them, is that a lot of this confusion and this lack of an ability to be nuanced, to have these reasonable conversations is because the overturning of Roe versus Wade made the conversation of abortion so loud, like, almost like fever pitch level where everybody is panicking. Right.
And it's harder to have those productive conversations, like, how has. For policy specifically, and, you know, looking at federal and even state, how has the reversal of roe versus Wade, like, impacted your work?
[00:26:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's impacted a lot. I mean, you know, I think it's been said many times before, but I kind of like to compare it to this. Like, Roe v. Wade, both were, both conservative scholars and liberal scholars believed that it was bad law.
It affected the whole system, and it needed to be overturned.
And there's never a bad time to do the right thing. Right.
And also, I would say that the pro life movement was caught flat footed, and I think that it was kind of like the dog who caught the tire. Right.
And we were not ready.
But guess what?
We became ready.
There's no going.
[00:26:56] Speaker A: We rallied. We're rallying.
[00:26:58] Speaker B: So it was easy for all of us to focus at row. Right. For 50 years.
But now, I think, as you can see through every news article about abortion, the movement's kind of fractured. And I think we're all looking for a place that we can unify and kind of point our ship to.
I think, ultimately. Right.
We want to see the day where abortion is unthinkable and necessary and acceptable right. In our culture.
And.
But how we get there is, I think it's where it causes a little bit of division.
You know, I always say that.
Let me preface by saying this, you know, aul and I would say the vast majority of the pro rep movement is never for prosecution of women who are seeking abortion. That. Is this clear? We.
[00:27:55] Speaker A: Right.
[00:27:56] Speaker B: Anytime.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: They are the victims. Yeah, they are the victims. They are. Yeah. We same. We take the same exact approach, and.
[00:28:04] Speaker B: They'Re the second victims of abortion, like you said. And I think, you know, we make it clear to folks that we're. You know, there's a. There's a couple of them out there. You know, we try to make those bills fail.
But with all say. When I say that to preface is that. When I say abolitionists, I mean William Wilberforce, abolitionist. I'm not talking about abolitionists. As we see today.
We call them prosecutionists.
But I will just say that we're all abolitionists at heart, but we're radical incrementalists in approach. And I think it's really important for us to continue on that intercrimental way of doing things. I think right now, we've been in a. A 50 year abusive relationship with abortion, and we just don't know how to get out of it. Right?
[00:28:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Right.
[00:28:56] Speaker B: You see that every day on the hill. I see it every day on the hill. You see it every day. And the reporting that goes on at the state level, you know, there's a lot of folks that are, that are confused, like we were just talking about. There's a lot of folks that are still trying to find their bearings where they actually fall.
And I think I. But right now, we're in a time that education, education, education is huge. Not just education on the history of Roe and jurisprudence and stuff, but education of what abortion is.
And also, to go back to what I said previously, we have to start really acknowledging the pain, the experience and generational trauma of women and through and by. And if we do that, that means that we have to start really focusing on the root causes of abortion. Right.
I like to say that abortion is a rotten fruit of a lot of rotten societal roots, and we have to start taking it back to the root causes of abortion. And that can be anywhere from financial to the way we treat women, can be culturally, can be politically, can be all the above. Right. And every, at every, you know, level of government, local, state, federal, but also in every sphere of society.
You know, right now we have companies that will pay for women to get abortion. Right.
[00:30:28] Speaker A: But do they have good maternity leave policies and, like, family leave policies? Yeah.
[00:30:34] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. No, and I think what's, what's been really surprising for me is that most of the big Fortune 500 companies that have these policies of paying for their employees to get an abortion, they have incredibly generous paid family leave policies, which is pretty, it's pretty confusing for me.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:55] Speaker B: But I think that they have some good pr folks where they're like, well, we can't do this and not do paid family leave.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: Well, at least they see the, at least. At least they see, see the hypocrisy of if they don't, you know, like, they do need to have both. But still.
[00:31:11] Speaker B: Yeah, but on paid family leave. Right. You know, this is a project that we've been working on called the blueprint for life.
You know, when it comes to the root cause of abortion, we have to start family policy, pro women policy, you know, and that looks like engaging in the childcare conversations. Right. It looks like engaging in paid family leave. Like, women should not have to take a pay cut in order to get pregnant. Right. It also looks like, you know, changing the marketplace. Right. We have a capitalistic society. Right. But if it's not creating family flourishing, we all, we need to fix that, right? There's a, there's a quote I love by Caitlin Shelton where she says, we keep trying to change women's bodies to fit the marketplace, but we should be changing the marketplace to fit women's bodies.
[00:32:05] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: And that is where the next step of the pro life movement is. I mean, we are trying to usher in this new, like, moment in the movement where we're not just, we're not just anti abortion because being pro life means so much more than that. But it can't mean less than that, but it also means focusing on all these different issues.
So pregnancy, resource centers, funny nose. All the above.
[00:32:32] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, we had this monumental victory with the reversal of Roe versus Wade, which. Amazing. Great. Like, we can celebrate it, but it caused so much upheaval that we as national leaders have to step back and we have to reevaluate. Right. And adjust for a completely new landscape. Like, we are nothing in the same situation that we were three years ago. I mean, and the strategies that worked then do not work now because of how much has changed with that one decision. And I think there was, I read that interview that you did with the national journal, and I loved it. And I think you had one quote that just sums up the policy needs so well. You said, moving forward, we can no longer be a party of. No Americans really want answers. How are pro life republicans and the pro life movement going to address the root cause of abortion? How are we going to reduce abortion and how are we going to support families? So tell me a little bit more. Like, what in the blueprint for life, like, what are the specific policies in this campaign? Like, what are you doing to address those exact things?
[00:33:48] Speaker B: Yeah. So there's several national pro f groups that have been signed on to this kind of platform, and we're excited about it. I think that the big thing is that we don't really have prescriptive policies just yet to sign on. That doesn't mean we're going to agree on everything, but it does mean we're going to engage in these conversations. Right. So something that AuL specifically has been working on is the child tax credit. Right. Expanding that.
You know, the bill that passed the House by 357 to like 70 or something has been hung up in the Senate. And I think republican senators are waiting for a potential victory of the Senate next year so that they can have more say in bills like this. And with the upcoming tax, tax battle with TCJA, you know, there's gonna be a lot of conversations around this, but we want to see that one of our proposals is make birth free. Right.
We want to see childbirth, pregnancy, prenatal, postpartum services covered. We're covering abortion, we're covering sterilization, we're covering birth control.
Why are we not covering pregnancy? And. Yeah.
Do we need to spend less in Washington? Absolutely. But also, do we need to ramp up spending for families and family flourishing and for women? Absolutely. And I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time. And I think there's several leaders on the Hill, I think, that are starting to or have been like Rubio and folks like that, I think. And Chris Smith. Right. Who are willing to have those hard conversations.
[00:35:40] Speaker A: I see it more as reprioritizing.
Yes. Like, I would consider myself socially liberal but fiscally conservative. I walk a really weird line and agree. Yes. Do we need to cut spending? Most likely. But what does that look like? And is it, I see it more of like, okay, maybe spend less money bailing out corporations and more money on families. I don't know. You know, so it's like if they are the bedrock of our, of our nation, if, because, I mean, UC studies, I mean, it is scientifically proven that children who grow up in, you know, stable, steady households are much more likely to thrive and, you know, have less, you know, not go to jail or have less. It is proven that a strong family base impacts culture. Right. So why are we not investing more in that system as opposed to the businesses? Sure. We need to invest some of that stuff into it, too. But if it really is the bedrock, why is that not the number one priority? Because if you have healthy families, you have a healthy culture, right?
[00:36:54] Speaker B: Totally. Yeah. And we're not just talking about, you know, republican families. We're talking about all american families. Right. Movement is, you know, creating a pro life culture in America is not just about republicans. Right. It's actually about creating a culture that looks at the human dignity of every person and says, you're worth it. And that means any sort of pro life safety net that needs to be out there and needs to be introduced to reprioritize, like, let it happen. Let's support the most vulnerable. And that also not just means unborn, but also throughout life. Right?
[00:37:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:30] Speaker B: And I think as a pro life movement, we have to start embracing this whole life ethic, right?
[00:37:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:36] Speaker B: And that doesn't mean we turn away one way, one bit from the injustice of abortion, of the unborn and of women. We have to do both. And to have a strong pro life movement, we have to be able to do that. And to be honest with you. I mean, many Democrats up here on the hill, they will probably say behind closed doors in a deep conversation that they're personally against abortion. But the reality is that a lot of them will never, ever join the pro life movement or anything to do with it. But they will say that they're for engaging in conversation around family and around how do we help women, children. And I think that's where we can find common ground.
And I love that you said you're, like, socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I think we need more people in the movement that just don't tow the republican line. We actually, this is a movement of justice. This isn't a political party movement. This is literally democrat, republican, independent, white, black, hispanic, asian, like everyone. Right. We're for the humanity of all humans. Right?
[00:38:48] Speaker A: Right. So do you have, I mean, have you had success with this approach on the policy level, like, of working with Democrats or even people that would consider, not just that say they're privately against abortion, but like, have you been able to work with people who would consider themselves pro abortion or pro choice, you know, like, taking this approach?
[00:39:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a few projects on the hill that we're working on that I won't go into, but I will say that it's hard to get meetings as a pro life organization on the hill with Democrats. That's just the reality of the politics that we live in right now. I wish it wasn't that way. I get it.
I would personally love to have a coffee each week with someone who's pro abortion. I think that's my lifeblood and I think it goes with, for me, I've seen the success of having conversations like this, having conversations at weddings or gas stations or grocery stores. I think that's where the rubber meets the road.
And I think that we have to be able to share these things and have the tough conversations.
And I've met some amazing, amazing folks who would consider themselves very progressive, far left, whatever, liberal.
And I think that they are pretty much there when it comes to the pro life issue, but they're not willing to submit to the Republican Party or what the Republican Party stands for.
[00:40:31] Speaker A: I don't fully blame them in the state we're in right now.
[00:40:34] Speaker B: I get it. No, I get it.
[00:40:35] Speaker A: I get it.
You're kind of touching a little bit on why we listener for client safety approaches things the way we do. Because we kind of intentionally, we picked a name that doesn't have pro life or life in it, and people pushed back on us for that, because they were like, they don't know what you do. But I said, it's really strategic, because when we approach these agencies and when we submit complaints, they're very.
I almost say, like, sterile. Like, they're just like, dear agency doctor, name, license number, event code. Like, we don't say anything about abortion. We don't say anything about being pro life.
We come into these meetings, you know, again, when I'm, I had a meeting with a literal police chief about an issue, an ongoing investigation. And I don't even think I said the word abortion until, like, 20 minutes into the conversation. I said, I run a national nonprofit that advocates for women who've had bad medical experiences, which is totally true, but it allows me to get those meetings right, because once they know that I'm pro life or I'm a pro life, there's a lot of negative stereotypes that go with that.
And people are expecting us unfairly to be unreasonable and demanding and angry. And I'm going, no, like, we. I want to have a conversation. I just want to have a conversation because you and I are probably going to agree because once I presented my case to them, they go, oh, yeah, this is totally a problem. And I went, yes, but I don't know if they would have ever had that meeting with me had I been, had it been so clear, you know, that I was a pro. So it's like, you got to be a little not, you know, a little covert about it, because it's like you have to get past all of those negative stereotypes that have been perpetuated by the abortion industry, that all pro lifers are these, like, angry, unreasonable people you can't work with when there's you and I going, no, I really actually want to have a legitimate conversation. And once we have those conversations, then we have, we have great, I now have great relationships in states where they're going. Like, we've never been able to get meetings with these people. And then I come in and I just approach it differently, and all of a sudden, we're making progress. But it takes that ability to, like, put our agenda aside for a second, you know, how do we meet these people where they are? How do we approach them in a way that is kind and humble and thoughtful? You know? And I think that's been a huge part of our work is, like, changing that narrative of, like, when we, we're going into these conversations and approaching these leaders, how do we do it in a way that makes them want to work with us. Yeah, right.
[00:43:27] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:43:27] Speaker A: You know, yeah, no, I mean, you need a. You need a sub. You need, like, a subgroup that doesn't have the word life in it, and that's who should be setting up your meetings.
[00:43:36] Speaker B: No, I totally agree. And, you know, a quote I love is that he who loves the most has the most influence. And, you know, when we try to make meetings or relationships that are means to an end, you know, that's something that people sniff right out. Right.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:56] Speaker B: And, you know, like, the reality is the vast majority of the. I mean, 90, 99% of the pro life movement is full of love and compassion. Right.
But I would also say that some of those stereotypes really match some of the politicians. Right. Like politicians rhetoric. And also Twitter doesn't make things better. Right.
[00:44:17] Speaker A: There's a reason the negative stereotype exists. There are people who do it. You're ruining it for the rest of us. Guys, like, come on.
[00:44:24] Speaker B: Exactly. And, you know, we need to bring back decency in the public square where we can actually disagree and not call the other person evil.
And I think that, you know, that's super important moving forward, you know? And I think coming to, like, humility and love is not necessarily. It's more of a liability up here, and we need to bring it back to be. Becoming an asset.
[00:44:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:49] Speaker B: So.
[00:44:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think this is something that, you know, we've talked a couple times and this is something that you and I just immediately connected on, is how do we reach people in a way that really changes their hearts? And it comes from a place of people. Can people know if you're being genuine, especially, like, Gen Z?
Like I said, they can sniff out that agenda immediately. But all of the most productive conversations I've ever had came from me just being a kind person that also is pro life. Right. And approaching those conversations that way because, you know, I have a lot of friends who are pro choice, and they would say they are, but they understand what I do and they know me and they go, well, that makes sense.
I like what you do. I like you and I like what you do. But if I just came out, when I come out and tell people what I do, there's always that moment of, like, get to know me first so that, you know, that, like, I'm not crazy. Right.
But it's. It's a hard thing to navigate because there's so many stereotypes on both sides, right. And just being able to, like, step back and go, how can we approach people and meet in the middle and not reduce people to their views on abortion? That's that's what I think we've done is like, we've become so reductive of, oh, you are pro choice, therefore you are evil.
You hate women, whatever. And most of them, now there are, again, there are people that are like that. Like abortion industry physicians are terrible and they do hate women, but most people are not that and the same on our side. It's like, oh, you're pro life. Well, you hate women, you're angry, you, you know, whatever insert. You just, you scream at women going, I'm like, no, most of us are not that either. Right.
So I think you embody that approach, and I see it in the policies that you're putting forward. I love this blueprint for life idea. I think it's, I think it's necessary. I think it is. I think you call it like the next chapter of the pro life movement. Right. I absolutely think that this is the case where everything just feels so upheaval is the only word I can really think of right now that describes the current state of our nation, not just on abortion, but on a lot of things. So many things are in just chaos right now. And how do we get back to those foundational things that we can all agree on and I. And find some stability, you know? So I love what you're doing. I think it's amazing.
Let us know how we can help. I wanna look at the enforcement mechanisms of it, you know, like, I wanna make sure that when you guys do pass these amazing policies, that they are actually done absolutely correctly on the ground level. So anything else you want to add about that?
[00:48:12] Speaker B: Well, I just, I mean, also, work is so important, you know, I think holding these agencies accountable is, is such an important job that often gets overlooked in the movement.
And I think it's really important that we have organizations like y'alls that isn't, you know, strictly forward facing pro life, you know.
[00:48:34] Speaker A: Right.
[00:48:34] Speaker B: But it's actually doing the hard work behind the scenes and sticking more apolitical and being about the protection of women. Right.
If we really care for the protection of women, we're not going to go wrong. Right.
[00:48:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:49] Speaker B: If we really care for to dignify all humans. Right. We're not going to call them evil. Right.
[00:48:54] Speaker A: Right.
[00:48:55] Speaker B: And it really matters how we say it and what we say. Right. Or what we say and how we say it.
[00:49:01] Speaker A: People don't remember what you said, they remember how you made them feel.
[00:49:05] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:49:08] Speaker A: So I would say it really matters how you say it.
[00:49:12] Speaker B: No, absolutely. Yeah. We see that all the time. Right. Like in politics.
So, yeah, you know the old adage, right? Like, people don't care how much, you know, but until they know how much you care. Right?
[00:49:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:26] Speaker B: And. And we have to just put that in our heart deeply and remind ourself of that. Right. And approach this all with humility, I think.
Until, for me, humility can be a hard thing sometimes. And I have to constantly go back and read those who have gone before me what they've gone through and really study the subject of humility.
And I think the more we do that, the more humble we are, the more people will see, okay, this guy doesn't have an agenda. This woman doesn't have an agenda. This organization seems like it's actually trying to do the right thing. We might disagree on this. Maybe we can have a conversation, you know, maybe that can open the door for a conversation. You know, I like to say this, missy, that if we really want to make abortion unthinkable, unnecessary and unacceptable, then we're actually going to have to win many hearts and minds of pro choice Americans. Until we do that, we're not going to just ram something through.
Americans are not going to have it. If we did that, it would flip the next year.
We have to be about how we did this.
[00:50:40] Speaker A: Yeah, we have to play the long game.
We have to play the long game. And that's hard. And that's a sacrifice. It's not a great fundraising strategy, let me tell you. But in the end, it's more effective. And yes, there are short term, it's like you have to have all the components of the short term strategy, the medium strategy and the long term. But if we're not playing that long game, then our victories are going to be short lived.
And that was perfectly exemplified after Roe was overturned. And then we lost every state battle, you know, because America was not ready, you know, cause we hadn't done a good enough job playing that long game. And, you know, it's hard as someone whose organization is solely, pretty much solely based on long term strategy, it is hard because we have cases that are going upwards of four years at this point, but we have to be committed because, yes, it's four years of work, but then an entire abortion facility is shut down. Like that is a massive impact. But we have to be able to make those sacrifices in the short term to play that long game. And I think having this kind of approach is one of those sacrifices because we don't get those immediate stories. We don't get that immediate dopamine hit of these crazy headlines but in the long run, we will be so much more successful. And I think what you guys are doing, it's the same approach.
People might not understand this new way, this new strategy initially, because it's just different than what we've always done. But I think in the long run, you're going to end up reaching more people, building more bridges, and reaching those movable middles is kind of what they've been termed of the people who are trying to decide how they feel about abortion. And if we can give them a bridge, if we can give them a hand and say, this is. Make this accessible to them. Right? Because if we're on our island over here, how do we expect them to cross? How do we expect them to get there? Right? So we have to build those bridges and find ways to invite them to our side in a way that's actually accessible. So I love it. You guys are awesome.
Before we close, I like to take a minute and ask each of our guests what you do off the clock.
It can't be family or, like, husband. It's gotta be a pure hobby.
When you're not advocating for women and children on the national level, what is your favorite thing to do?
[00:53:38] Speaker B: You said it can be family. Okay. No, I just got married, so that's the.
[00:53:43] Speaker A: I know. Everybody, listen, listen. We're on a pro life podcast. Everybody's first answer is always like, husband, wife, mother, father. I'm like, nope, that doesn't count. That's a given. We know that about you. That's assumed. So it's gotta be something else.
[00:53:58] Speaker B: Yeah. No. Well, I think two things come to mind. I love being on a boat, and I try to get on a boat as much as I can, or go, oh, that's fun.
When I was younger, I won several sailboat regattas. And so if it's a sailboat, I'm all for it. If it's a powerboat, less so. But I love being on both boats.
And then I love reading. You know, one of the things that I. I think that gives me inspiration and encouragement is reading those who went before me, you know? So I have lots of heroes out there.
Frederick Douglass, William Wilberforce, and John Wesley and George Whitfield. You know, like, those are folks who. Fannie Lou Hamer. Right. That really influenced the way I think. And so, you know, that. That's. That's more off the clock kind of stuff for me that I like to embrace.
[00:54:52] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I always say, like, if I'm not working or being a mom or wife, I'm either reading or gardening. Yeah, those are. Those are my. I highly recommend.
I think it's Andrew Murray. Have you read his book on humility?
[00:55:05] Speaker B: So good. Yes. That's one of the. That's one of the ones I go to for sure. It's convicting.
[00:55:12] Speaker A: Yes. That was. It's been on our bookshelf for years. I think my husband's reread it a couple times, that if you hear my voice and if you're listening to this podcast and you want an amazing book on humility, look up Andrew Murray's. Is it called. I think it's called humility or humble.
It's a great. It's a great, great read.
Yeah. So I think a lot of us, especially in, like, the research policy world, it's kind of a given that we're all readers.
We enjoy learning, and because a lot of what we're reading, even with fiction books, because I've gotten. I used to, in college, I was very pretentious. I can say that about myself. I was very pretentious and very opinionated. And I would only read nonfiction books because I thought, like, if I'm gonna spend my time reading, then I would have. I want it to be productive. That's what I would say. Which is just so, you know, like, come on.
But I had an english professor who opened my world to the. The fiction and how much you can really learn in fiction and how fiction books can address societal issues and stir conversations. And now that's pretty much all I read. I'm like, I just want to be lost in a fantastical world and just reading, because I just want feel good books at this point. But, yeah, I love a good biography. I love a good historical book. But now I'm like, just. I just want to read a love story.
[00:56:40] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I mean, a person that I love to follow is Kurt Thompson. He. He has this quote, and he says, each day you got to put yourself in the pathway of beauty, like an oncoming train. Like, literally step on the tracks of oncoming beauty.
[00:56:56] Speaker A: Oh, I love that.
[00:56:57] Speaker B: And that looks more than look. Looks more like actually walking into a cathedral or a beautiful building or reading some poetry.
Like, let it affect you deeply. Right. Go to a theater stage play. Right. I mean, my wife do that because she's an actress. And, you know, I've had some of the most amazing, inspirational things that have happened to me for this issue. Way outside the prolet prologue perspective or right outside the full wall. Full wall from the prologue movement. And I think we have to be able to experience those things and experience, like, different points of view, perspectives. Go.
The next time you hear that center for reproductive rights is doing something, just go listen to their, go to their podcast or go to their meeting in DC and just sit down and listen and hear their perspective, hear the truth that might come out and here and here, that here are the things that you might not agree with, but you have to expose yourself to these things.
It's super important moving forward.
There's one quote, miss. Yeah, I know we gotta go, but there's one quote that I love.
During the William Wobble forces abolitionist movement to end slavery in the UK, there was a woman who wrote a book after it all happened. He spent like 49 years, like, trying to overturn or not overturn, but in slavery. And she said, the poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world. And it's the storytellers. Right. Poets are storytellers. The storytellers that went. Right.
[00:58:41] Speaker A: And they're the ones that are shaping culture.
[00:58:43] Speaker B: Absolutely. And we have to become storytellers. Right? Like, that's why I share my moms and my grandma said, you know, people's story, because that's it's power. We are conditioned for thousands of years to be affected by stories. Right? And the pro abortion folks do it so well, and they tell really good stories. And we have to become very good storytellers, too, because I do believe in MLK's statement, right. The arc of the universe spins towards justice. Right. So we. We're gonna win in the end. We need to be ready to embrace some more losses along the, you know, November. I'm sure we're gonna experience some, but we can lose a lot of battles if we win the war.
[00:59:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:59:28] Speaker B: And we do.
[00:59:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:59:29] Speaker B: And I don't like to talk in battle terms, but.
[00:59:34] Speaker A: Yeah, you say, yeah, we try to move away from that kind of language, but no, I totally get what you're saying. Saying, wow, that's great, Jesse. You're awesome.
Thank you so much for joining me today. And just a quick reminder to everyone listening episodes drop every Friday and are now available for everyone to hear. So help us spread the word by rating and reviewing and sharing with your friends. And don't forget, when you buy your next bag of coffee to use our link in the show notes and support our work. So for more information about the amazing work the center for Client Safety is doing, visit centerforclientsafety.org. or you can find us on socials at centerforclient safety. And you can find me on socials. Icymartine stone. See you next time.
