Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] This is Missy Martinez Stone, and you're listening to the centered podcast, where we have unifying conversations on the divisive subject of abortion.
[00:00:38] Hi, this is Missy Martinez Stone, and welcome to the Centered podcast. Today is another episode of what we can all agree on in the news. Abortion has made its way back into the news cycle, and unfortunately, it was due to reports coming out of just devastating stories of women who have died from abortion complications.
[00:01:07] And the abortion industry and abortion advocates have used the opportunity to capitalize on people's fear and spread blatant misinformation about what is happening at the state level, especially with abortion restrictions and what physicians responsibilities are in those cases of complications. So I want to take some time today to talk about these cases and cut through the noise as usual, and do something similar to what I did with the presidential debate. And that is go line by line and look at the claims and then read the code for ourselves and look at the facts so that we can make informed decisions and we can push against false narratives, because these narratives that are being spread and perpetuated by the abortion industry are costing women their lives.
[00:02:16] So the first case, the most prominent one that I've seen and that we're going to talk about today is Amber Thurman, who passed away, I think, two years ago in Georgia. And this is a devastating story. This is a family who was hurting, who lost a loved one from a situation that was completely preventable.
[00:02:47] And I think the thing that we can all agree on, regardless of where you stand on abortion, is that women should not die, period.
[00:03:00] And especially women should not die from preventable causes.
[00:03:10] So that's going to be the focus today, wherever you stand on the issue.
[00:03:16] We all agree women should not die, and women especially should not die from preventable causes.
[00:03:28] So as far as I understand, the story, is that Amber got pregnant, and because of Georgia's gestational limit, because Georgia does have limits on when women can have abortions in the state, she traveled outside of state, which is very common, to get abortion pills in a state where it is legal to obtain them, and upon returning, began experiencing some complications.
[00:04:02] And I know there has been discussions about she delayed seeking care.
[00:04:09] And I think this is something that's come up with a couple of these cases. There was a delay in seeking care because there, you know, the, the abortion industry has consistently talked about doctors or emergency room physicians not being able to treat any type of abortion, complication or miscarriage. So that that is something that is being said. I've heard it with my own ears.
[00:04:42] From us congresspeople that there is a misconception if a woman shows up with a miscarriage or with abortion complications, that if there is some sort of ban in that state, they will not get treatment.
[00:05:05] And from what I understand, she believed that she fell victim to that messaging, and so she delayed care.
[00:05:17] And so off the bat, we're already seeing how these, this messaging impacts women's lives. So by the time she did show up at the emergency room, she was in, it was bad. It was severe. It was, it was very dangerous. And the physicians are saying that because of Georgia's ban on abortions, they could not offer her life saving care because the immediate response should have been what's called a d and C.
[00:05:59] She was suffering from complications from an incomplete abortion. And this is something that happens pretty regularly, that the abortion industry does not talk about where the pills are taken and the woman's body does not fully expel the baby. This could happen in miscarriages. I mean, this is just a, this is a complication that can happen with any type of pregnancy loss.
[00:06:27] When the parts of the baby are retained, it is extremely dangerous because it can cause infections, sepsis, hemorrhaging.
[00:06:36] And the protocol is you get the parts out right, because the longer you leave them in, the higher they are at risk for causing life altering damage and infection and death.
[00:06:53] So what we have heard from a number of physicians, predominantly ob gyns, is the protocol should have been she presented with an incomplete abortion, with an infection, you know, hemorrhaging.
[00:07:11] She is very sick.
[00:07:13] The first thing they should have done was take her to the OR and perform a d and C and remove the fetal tissue that was retained to save her life.
[00:07:27] What the physicians are arguing is that because of Georgia's state band, that they could not perform that procedure, even though the baby had already passed away and her life was obviously in danger.
[00:07:45] And so anytime a mother passes away from a pregnancy related cause, it goes to a maternal mortality board to review, because in the United States, our maternal mortality rates are embarrassing.
[00:08:03] We have some of the lowest in the, in the world for being such a developed country.
[00:08:10] And there's all kinds of theories as to why that is.
[00:08:16] It could be maybe our, our inability to address issues like abortion.
[00:08:27] Well, without the politics, but, you know, that's just a theory. But our maternal mortality rates are very concerning for such a developed nation. And so these states have these boards and they review these cases, and an article was released about this case in particular.
[00:08:50] And the board is saying that the problem was, again, the Georgia restrictions on abortion. Before I get into that part, I do want to point out that the person who wrote this is the pro Politica piece.
[00:09:12] They reference conversations with said board, and even though they don't say who said it, that is a wild breach of ethics and possibly HIPAA violations, that you have somebody on a board that reviews confidential information, talking about patient cases with a reporter. So I'm just going to leave that there. That there are some ethical questions about the reporting on this case and who share this information, because what was said, I don't believe was legally allowed to be said. So that's issue number one.
[00:10:10] Issue number two is that this understanding or this messaging that these bans are what are killing women is not true. And I don't say that as somebody who's like, yeah, I work in the pro life movement, and I.
[00:10:33] You know what? Yes, I want to see dangerous practitioners shut down. But I went to the code. I've talked to attorneys.
[00:10:43] I've read it for myself. And how these practitioners could come to this conclusion is astounding. Truly.
[00:10:58] I'm still trying to understand it. How these. How these physicians in the first place came to this conclusion is astounding.
[00:11:06] And this medical board came to this conclusion is astounding because it is actually blatantly false.
[00:11:19] And normally, I would try to be a little bit more nuanced and say, like, okay, let's understand where they're coming from. You've heard other episodes where I have even criticized, you know, the conservative side or the pro life side for misinformation. Like, I'm totally okay with admitting when we don't get things right.
[00:11:39] And I want to be completely fair.
[00:11:43] And so it should be.
[00:11:46] It should hold a lot of weight when I'm willing to come on here and say, this was so wrong.
[00:11:57] So I'm gonna pull up the code myself. I'm gonna read it to you. I'm gonna let you decide what it says. So the main rule in question is what is commonly known as the heartbeat law, and this was passed in 2019.
[00:12:19] It was called the Living Infants Fairness and Equity act, the life act signed into law by the governor, by Governor Kemp on May 17, 2019.
[00:12:32] The law. The purpose of the law was to say that no abortion. I'm reading straight from the rules. No abortion shall be performed if the unborn child has a detectable human heartbeat, except.
[00:12:52] Except in the event of a medical emergency or a medically futile pregnancy.
[00:13:10] It also has exceptions, except in cases of rape or incest, if it's before 20 weeks and then it says, the law does not prohibit the removal of a dead unborn child. So we have this case where a woman shows up with complications from the abortion pill, and the doctors are claiming that they were fearing prosecution if they performed an abortion to save a woman. The code is extremely clear.
[00:13:53] It says, except in the case of a medical emergency.
[00:14:02] And again, it does not apply in the removal of a dead fetus.
[00:14:13] It also, we want to get even more into the weeds. Our national lead investigator, Gavin Oxley, is his background. He has a master's in legal research. He got his undergrad in medical ethics and healthcare compliance.
[00:14:31] He is brilliant. And this is his. He knows this stuff, right.
[00:14:37] He went even further because I said, gavin, like, go line by line, like, explain this to me.
[00:14:45] So here's what Gavin said.
[00:14:49] The code first delineates what abortion is as opposed to what abortion is not.
[00:14:55] According to the law. In the state of Georgia, abortion is defined as an act of using, prescribing, or administering any instrument, substance, device, or other means with the purpose to terminate a pregnancy with knowledge that termination will reasonable, with reasonable likelihood cause the death of an unborn child.
[00:15:17] So the definition from the beginning is clear that the abortion is performing any act that causes the death of the unborn child, right. And that is what. And doing it with knowledge that is the indicator.
[00:15:40] And that is illegal. Right.
[00:15:44] Then it goes on the subsections of this same code. Also note that the following are not abortions in the state of Georgia.
[00:15:54] Removing a dead unborn child caused by spontaneous abortion, miscarriage, and stillbirth, or removing an ectopic pregnancy.
[00:16:06] That's another one that comes up very commonly, that in cases of miscarriage, women will not get treated, or in the cases of ectopic pregnancy, women will not get treated. It says in the code they will.
[00:16:20] That it says these are not abortions. These exceptions are in there to protect women and provide comfort to them that treating their condition is not a moral action, but rather than a necessary one that's protected by law to save their lives. And these exceptions purposefully deviate from the standard and to provide, like they purposefully deviate from the standard of this, of the overly broad medical definition of abortion, because the term abortion in the legal, in legal jargon and the term abortion in the medical and medical jargon mean two different things.
[00:17:16] And so the state said, we're going to purposefully deviate from the standard of this broad definition and provide clarity to doctors treating these conditions. And then they went even further to provide even more clarity in exceptions, acknowledging that they, as legislators, are not medical experts and they are not qualified to denote every exception in their law that doctors have protected autonomy to practice within means that they believe are life affirming.
[00:18:03] So there's exceptions that also include when a physician reasonably judges the woman is experiencing a medical emergency, so there is room for the physicians to make that call that the pregnancy has resulted from rape or incest and the physician reasonably estimated the unborn child to be less than 20 weeks, or a physician reasonably judges the pregnancy to be futile. So they're saying not only are we going to put these exceptions in, if you are acting in good faith, and you can say it was just my reasonable judgment that this woman was experiencing medical emergency, you're clear, you can treat her. Absolutely. You should treat her. And this is emphasizes the protection that the physician has to act in what they know is the best interest of the patient. And the best interest of the patient is that she does not die.
[00:19:16] And we can all agree that always 100% should be the case. So, yes, abortionists are absolutely in danger of prosecution and regulatory penalty if they violate the Georgia heartbeat law, as they should be. That's the law that was passed in the state. They should follow it. However, this was clearly not a situation in which that law was applicable.
[00:19:49] And the legislators did their job in writing a law that was both clear, enforceable. They even put in clear civil and criminal disciplinary actions so that people who were actually breaking the law could be held accountable. What this is not doing is preventing care for women who are experiencing complications after abortions, incomplete abortions, miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy. And you can pull the code yourself. I encourage you to read it. And I will say, too, this is Georgia's example.
[00:20:35] But you will find a life of the mother exception in every single band. And you will also find, typically a definition that goes out of its way to say, this does not apply to ectopic pregnancies, this does not apply to miscarriage.
[00:20:57] And here's the issue.
[00:21:01] These talking points that are being spread by abortion advocates, by lawmakers, by Kamala Harris herself, which I talked about after the presidential debate.
[00:21:12] She said if a woman goes into an emergency room suffering from a miscarriage, she wouldn't be able to get care.
[00:21:23] They need to understand that if women believe what they are saying, that could cost them their life. This misinformation is costing people their lives.
[00:21:38] Because whether it's true or not, if that woman believes it and a physician believes it, women will die. Women have died because even though it was false, they thought it was true.
[00:21:55] And I'll go even further to say, if I was the physician in that case, and I've heard other, I've heard multiple physicians say this, that are in the pro life movement, they have said, if I was a physician in that case, I would have saved her life. And I would have said, consequences be damned.
[00:22:15] I would have dealt with the. I would have dealt with the consequences later.
[00:22:19] But they were so afraid of prosecution that they let somebody die when they did not fully understand what this law says. Whatever attorney was in their ears explaining this rule to them needs to be fired, needs to be disbarred. Because the misinformation, it is so blatantly misinformation because you can read the code yourself, where it provides protection for women like amber.
[00:22:56] They need to be held accountable.
[00:22:59] And when people continue to share this misinformation, women will die.
[00:23:07] And it is not the fault of the law.
[00:23:14] It is bad doctors, it is bad lawyers. It is people refusing to put their politics aside for 2 seconds to make an objective decision to provide these women with quality care and save their life. I can bring more examples. Maybe I start making this something I do at the end of every episode where I read laws and I show people where the exceptions are.
[00:23:48] But I, again, I cannot say this loudly enough. I said this on the Emtala case to about Idaho.
[00:23:54] Nobody wants women to die. And what we see all the time are these poor girls showing up in the emergency rooms with severe complications because the abortion industry has given them illegal abortion pills that they had no prior screening before being given them. So they weren't screened for risks. They were seen by physicians who have a history of medical negligence, of drug use, of abuse, who do terrible jobs, who are incompetent.
[00:24:40] That is the abortion industry's fault. Nothing. The loss.
[00:24:47] And we have to get away from just believing these talking points at face value because this is a clear case of misinformation.
[00:24:58] And that misinformation cost women their lives.
[00:25:05] So what we are going to do at the center for client Safety is we are going to investigate this case because there was clear malpractice on multiple fronts. We are going to try to find out what hospital was involved, who were these physicians, and we are going to hold them accountable.
[00:25:29] We have worked with the Georgia Composite medical board. Trust me, we know them, and we will get information to them for what happened, and we are going to work to hold the correct people accountable for Amber's death.
[00:25:47] And we'll do the same for the other women.
[00:25:51] I need to go back and read more about the other cases again. Amber's case is the one I'm the most familiar with, and I wanted to get this out as soon as possible, but I will go back as well and read about candy. And I think there was one more case that came through, and we'll look into them, too.
[00:26:10] Who do we actually need to hold responsible?
[00:26:14] And it is bad doctors, bad lawyers, and even bad maternal mortality board members. They need to step back, put their personal bias aside, be able to look at these cases objectively and see it for what it is, and stop using these poor women's stories as a pawn in their scheme.
[00:26:53] It's devastating. It's devastating and we should be upset. We should be very upset. We should be upset for these families.
[00:27:03] We should be upset about the grief that they are experiencing. We should be upset at this injustice, but be upset at the right people because it is not the pro life law's fault. They did a great job of being very clear.
[00:27:23] So if you don't believe me, go pull the rule yourself. The Life act of 2019. You can read the exceptions.
[00:27:34] If you are in a different state and there's a ban or restriction in your state, go read it yourself. Read the whole thing before you spread any information about it. Do not get this information from abortion advocates because they have proven to spread a false narrative that has resulted in women's death. It's a heavy topic today. I feel like that's been the case recently.
[00:28:05] But we need to be able to address this head on and be honest and not shy away from these hard conversations.
[00:28:15] So if you have questions, if you want to reach out, if you have personal experience you would like to share. If you were harmed by an abortion facility, if you were harmed by a doctor who did not treat a miscarriage, please reach out to the center for client Safety. You go to our website. You can file a report.
[00:28:36] Clientsafetyavocates.org is specifically for women who have had their patient safety not taken care of. You can file a report. We will review it.
[00:28:50] We will see what happened, did violations occur, and who do we need to hold responsible? Because let's hold the right people responsible.
[00:28:59] See you next time.
