Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: This is Missy Martinez Stone, and you're listening to the centered podcast, where we have unifying conversations on the divisive subject of abortion.
Hello and welcome to the centered podcast. I'm your host, Missy Martinez Stone, and today joining me is my good friend Peter Range, the newly appointed senior fellow for strategic initiatives at the center for Christian Virtue. Peter holds a master's in theology from Notre Dame and has spent his life serving the homeless, at risk youth, immigrant families. He served as the director of the Office of life and justice at the Catholic Charities in the Diocese of Toledo for seven years, and then served as the executive director at Ohio right to Life before joining the center for Christian Virtue.
He also hosts his very own radio show, say yes to life. But most importantly, he is a devoted husband and a father to many children and one of my dearest friends. Welcome, Peter.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: Missy, it's so great to be with you, but to call me a senior fellow makes me feel really old.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: So that's what it said.
That's what it said on your announcement. What is your official title? Is that it?
[00:01:43] Speaker B: So it's senior fellow of strategic initiatives. So it's basically just, hey, I'm working in the pro life movement, but really working kind of on the foundation of the pro life movement, too, which is rebuilding strong marriages and strong families, because we know at the end of the day that 85% of women procuring abortions are single. So we need to rebuild that family unit if we want to strike at the core of this issue.
[00:02:04] Speaker A: And is this based only in Ohio, or is this a national group?
[00:02:09] Speaker B: It's just in Ohio, but we certainly hope that a lot of our work will kind of lead out into other states as well.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: That's so cool. Well, before we get into the discussion and your story, I do want to set the stage a little bit and explain why I asked you to do this podcast episode with me. You and I are good friends, and there is so much mutual respect for each other, you know, professionally and personally. But we could not be more opposite, right?
I think we could be considered the prime example of what this podcast is about. It's about building bridges, building relationships, finding things that we can center around, especially on the divisive subject of abortion.
You are. I mean, for those who are listening and you can't see him, Peter is a white man who is politically conservative and a devout Catholic, which is great. I love that for you. I am a minority woman who leans liberal and currently have a very complicated relationship with religion. And some days I practice, some days I don't while I work through all of my trauma, but we have an amazing friendship and have worked together on a number of things. And when I texted you about what you wanted to focus on in this episode and you pitched having political discussions, you know, given the upcoming election, I thought, yes, that is perfect. So that's what we're going to get into. And I think it'll be really interesting given our different perspectives. But first, I would love for you to share your personal story of how you got involved in pro life work.
[00:04:00] Speaker B: Sure. Thanks so much, missy. It's so great to be with you. I'm so excited for this conversation because it's really an important one that the nation needs to have now. You know, I recognize in my own family sometimes these relationships become strained because we start talking about politics. So how do we do that? And how do we do that? Well, but speaking of my family, that's where my story begins. My dad was actually twice paralyzed in his life from the neck down. So age eleven, he contracted the polio virus, which basically took his ability to walk. Thankfully, through some rehabilitation, he regained the use of his arm, his right arm, by about 50%. So he was able to put his pants on in the morning, dress himself. But it would take him, I mean, literally 40 minutes just to put those pants on. So my tough irish grandmother, catholic irish grandmother, said, jerry, you're going to learn to take care of yourself. So he did. He went off to the University of Illinois, got his master's in journalism, moved to Cleveland, Ohio. He was working for the Cleveland plane dealer. And he was getting a ride home from a buddy one night, and they got into a car accident on the shoreway in Cleveland. So maybe you have some Cleveland listeners familiar with Edgewater park up there.
But my dad was smack dab in between two hospitals. One was St. John's, which was Catholic. The other was St. Luke, which was a protestant hospital. And my dad, who was kind of, like, nominally Catholic at the time, said, well, take me to the catholic hospital. So he goes to St. John's, and the nurse assigned to his room was a woman by the name of Mary Jean Cook. They met, they fell in love, and they were married a year later. So, I mean, your life can literally change on a dime just like that, right? So dad used to like the joke. If he would have gone to the protestant hospital, he would have married nice protestant girlfriend. So he got the good cat.
So they had six kids, including myself.
You know, my dad also used to like to joke that not all of him was paralyzed. I'm like, dad, I don't want to hear any more about it.
So for some of your listeners, you're still catching up to that. That's okay.
It's part of the journey, right, for him.
And. But we moved to Dayton, Ohio. That's where I was born. And in 1989, when I was just eight years old, dad was suffering from severe anxiety, depression. And honestly, I think a lot of my conversations are molded in this kind of reality that I've suffered from severe anxiety, depression as well. So it just draws me to a deeper compassion for whatever somebody else might be struggling with. But with that being said, dad went to the psychiatrist for help. She was great, but she prescribed a medication. It was FDA approved, but being made illegally by the company at the time.
And the company, they were just trying to make a profit. It killed thousands, injured thousands more, and it reparalized my dad again from the neck down. So any ability he had to pick up a cup of coffee to feed himself, dress himself, he lost it. He was completely dependent upon my mom and has six kids for his every single need.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: And how old was he at this point?
[00:06:42] Speaker B: So he would have been in his early fifties, I think.
[00:06:44] Speaker A: Wow, it's devastating.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: In the last 2026 years of his life, you know, completely dependent upon my mom and his six kids. And, you know, I witnessed the value and dignity of life every single day because, you know, my dad, when he would wake up, especially later in life, when he had the tracheotomy, he couldn't call out for help, he had to just click his tongue. And if my mom was doing dishes or maybe the laundry, she couldn't hear that. So my dad, he's got to go to the bathroom, and he's just laying on his back flat for an hour.
So for your listeners, just think about that. Just to wake up every morning and you've got to go, the first thing you do is you go to the bathroom, and he's just laying flat on his back. He can't move. Every time he's got an itch or he's got. He's got to blow his nose, he has to ask somebody else for that assistance. So I saw the value and dignity of human life not based upon what it could or could not do, but based upon what it is. And my dad, made in God's image and likeness, had worth and value simply because he exists.
He was. He is so very blessed by that background. And that led me into a life of service working with the poor. I've lived with homeless men for a year of my life, tremendously challenging experience. I mean, some of those men had heroin addictions, gain violence, you kind of name it, they struggle with it. One of my good friends that I'm still in touch with, he's actually in jail, and so I'm in touch with him every single week. And we love James to death, but did some work kind of in the pro life field here and there. I mean, every position I was in throughout my life, I spent time working in the pro life field, because I always felt if we can't get that first fundamental issue right, that every child has a right to life, then it's really hard to advocate for children having a right to education or housing or healthcare if they first don't have a right to simply live. So I've spent my life trying to convince others of the belief of the dignity and value of life from the very moment of conception to natural death. And it's not easy in our world and culture today, because so many of our young people, even people watching the podcast, we doubt the value and goodness of our own lives, that our own lives has value, has purpose, has an ultimate and eternal meaning. And so maybe we can just start there today, that everybody listening right now, you have eternal value and eternal purpose, and God sees you, God knows you, and God loves you, and he wants what is best for you. And I think that's the fundamental challenge of being human, is just recognizing the value and worth of your own life. You know, maybe that's a good place to start for your listeners today as well.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, what happened to your dad is so tragic, and I can't imagine how painful that was for you, for him, for your family. But I love that you and your family saw caring for him as an extension of your pro life values, like you dignified his life. And that theme continued on in your work with immigrants and the homeless. And there's a common criticism of people who are pro life that we only care about the life of the preborn child, and then after that we don't. And I think you are an amazing example of that not being the case.
But I mean, how can we take that inherent value that we believe, you know, in the preborn? The preborn has inherent value because they are human. How do we extend that out?
[00:10:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think that's got to go with every single individual that we encounter.
And so, you know, I have some rules, maybe in engagement with folks, and the number one rule is to just remember that every individual you're speaking to, God's son or daughter. So even if you have a disagreement with them or you're on completely different ends of the political spectrum, it is to remember that they, too, are made in God's image and likeness. And one story that might illustrate this is, you know, I ran a ministry that went to the sidewalk of the abortion facility in Toledo, and the abortion doctor who was working there, who obviously, I have different, you know, worldviews with and everything. I reached out to him, said, excuse me, my name is Peter, sir, I just would love to have a conversation with you. And so the first thing he told me was, fu. Okay. I came back the next week and said, excuse me, sir, we'd love to have a conversation with you. First thing he said was, f you. Okay.
So this happened for a series of weeks. Eventually, though, he came over and we talked a little bit. We had a conversation.
We ended up exchanging books. So I gave him Peter Krefs, the unaborted socrates. Highly recommend that book. It helps you kind of think through the issue of life. He gave me Christopher Hitchens. God is not great. I don't recommend it. However.
You know, it's a challenging kind of, you know, look at religion and how religion has hurt some folks in the.
[00:11:43] Speaker A: Past, which I understand.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: Yeah. So we were actually able to go out and have lunch together. We broke bread. He was actually baptized in Methodist. You know, I learned his story. I think it was the french philosopher Camus who said, God made man, because he loves stories, and we all have our stories. And so it is a privilege to sit down with folks, even if they have a completely different worldview, just to hear how God is working in their life or how they feel like God is not working in their life. Nonetheless, the last time I saw this particular abortionist, he invited me up, actually, onto the abortion facility property. And I don't recommend that because you're actually not allowed to go there if you're a pro lifer. But, you know, feeling proper.
Well, if you're invited by. Yeah, by the abortion doctor. So I go up, and we're underneath a little kind of awning, protecting us from the weather and different things. But I just felt on my spirit, I was like, tom, I feel like the Lord is calling us to pray together. And so he said, f you. I'm not praying. Okay. You know, so normally in those situations, I kind of just, you know, let it go or whatever. But ten minutes later, it was just, you know, again, on my heart, I was like, tom, I know that the Lord just wants us to pray. And he said, fine, peter. Say your stupid prayers. Okay. So I closed my eyes, I opened up my hands, and kind of just had them in the open position, and I began to pray. And I was praying about how God loves Tom and has a purpose and mission for his life, just like he does mine, and that we're both sinners in need of his grace. And, you know, none of us here is better than one or the other. We're just here in need of your mercy and grace. And as I was praying, the man who had aborted 10,000 kids in his life with his hands.
His hands came into mine, and we held hands, and I'll never forget it. Missing. I don't speak for the holy spirit, but I felt like I heard the voice of God more profoundly at that moment than maybe any other time. And I just heard the Holy Spirit say, this is my son, and I want him home.
[00:13:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:47] Speaker B: And that's always stuck with me. Again, this is someone. I have diametrically different views on the issue of life. I mean, he's literally ending the baby's lives that I have spent my life trying to save.
And God's message to me wasn't to say, you know, condemn him to hell. It wasn't to curse him. It was to say, this is my son. I want him home. I want my boy at home. And being a dad myself, that's all I want from my kids. I just want to be with them, and I want to love them. So, in our political conversations, and we're sitting across from somebody and they're saying something that we disagree with, and we feel like their particular position might be threatening our very democracy, we have to remind ourselves in that moment that this is God's son or daughter. God's son or daughter deserves to be loved, and he deserves, or she deserves to be loved through us and the way that we treat them.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I definitely.
We've talked before on this podcast about, you know, how we have dehumanized each other. And we use that term a lot in the pro life movement in regards to what we believe the abortion industry has done to the children. They have dehumanized them to justify killing them. But when you actually look at the right, the left, pro choice, pro life, it's so hard to have constructive conversations because we have reduced each other to our views on abortion. And what I have found is, you know, in the circles I run in, most of my friends are not pro life.
And. But we are able to have good relationships because we're humans first. Right. Like you are bigger than your view on abortion. And then the next thing I'm thinking is there are things going on that are driving our decisions, right? Our life experiences, you know, the way we were raised, what we have. There's so many things. There's these core values, right, that are motivating our decisions. Like, we might disagree. Like, the issues to me are almost, like, obsolete because the issues are the fruit of the core values, right? And so when I am talking to people, I'm like, you're human first.
You are not your views. But what I'm looking for, the root, like, what is driving these people to, or driving myself, like, looking internally, what is driving me, what is motivating me to lean this way or lean that way. And, you know, it's no secret that the past few election cycles have been a lot more contentious and things are becoming more and more polarized. Like, what do you think some of those core beliefs are that are impacting these decisions of how people are choosing to vote?
[00:16:55] Speaker B: Yeah, well, that's a great question. And I think in many ways, we're more alike than we are different. But political season certainly drives us to the edges to say, this person is evil.
This person is a personification of evil. And that's because of the ads and the way that the political parties talk about each other in a lot of different ways. But you said something really important, and that is that a lot of people, they have good motivations.
They want to see a society that does care for each other. And sometimes we just have different ideas on how to get there, and that plays itself out. St. Augustine said. So even if our ideas are wrong or bad, St. Augustine describes sin as missing the mark. Absolutely.
You're aiming for something. You want to hit that bullseye, but you're missing the mark a little bit. And I think in a lot of these conversations, we just assume that someone is, you know, turn around and they have the arrow pointed at us. It's like, no, they're just kind of missing maybe necessarily what is going to be actually the best solution for x, y or z problem.
So, you know, I do think, quite frankly, and this is, this is a difficult conversation to have because you get into really kind of personal matters here. But I do think a lot of our discussion or our debate today is surrounded around our worldviews which are kind of formed or shaped about our idea about who God is and what is the nature of God. And if you look around the world sometimes, we're very much in our american bubble, right, that we think every country around the world is just like America, when in fact, it's not. A lot of countries are based upon different kind of theological systems. They're based upon different presuppositions about, you know, who the human person is. And that affects the way that they treat each other. I mean, I'm heartbroken right now. If you look at Afghanistan and the way that women are being treated right now, they're being forced to wear burkas in public. That's a different worldview. That's a different understanding, appreciation about female dignity, for example. So not all worldviews, in my mind, are equal.
But here's the challenge.
We need to be able to say that. We need to be able to say that there are a hierarchy of ways to live while not necessarily judging the person and their particular perspective. And that's not always an easy thing to do, because we don't want to say that every single opinion or perspective is equal. I don't think that the KKK's perspective on race relations is equal to mine, and I don't think anybody listening to the podcast would say that either. Right.
But do I believe in a culture and society which gives people the right to say maybe a particular opinion? Because when you allow people to speak and whether they have a negative or positive opinion, what you do is you put that language into the public's square where it can be kind of worked out and there can be transformation with no communication, there can be no communion.
We can't just stand behind different brick walls and kind of lob bombs at each other. We have to get out and speak kind of face to face. So where do these differences come from? I think they come from kind of our understanding, appreciation foundationally about who God is, our faith background, our experiences in life which shape our worldviews. And then because of the political, modern political discourse, those worldviews are sharpened and almost made to be like these diametrically opposed forces that one must win. And if I don't win, then it's the collapse of civilization.
As much as I don't want one particular party to win in this upcoming election, I don't think it's going to mean the collapse of civilization. It might mean suffering, it might mean persecution, it might mean different things, but it's not going to be the end of the world.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:20:48] Speaker B: And so I think that's important to remember as we're talking with folks.
[00:20:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And what I have found is, yes, we are driven by our own internal worldview, the way the world has shaped us, our life experiences, but there's also a really, there's almost just as deeply rooted. Hold on. Let me think how to say this. We are, yes, we are shaped by our worldview and our life experiences, but it's almost what I have seen, that reacting to the different is almost becoming just as motivating. Right. That fear is becoming a really present motivation, that it's not just, this is my world, so I'm going to, or this is how I've experienced the world. So this is my view.
It's, I'm afraid of this. So therefore, like, all of these worldviews and these motivations are not necessarily positive, you know, and this applies, I think, across the political spectrum. But, you know, people are afraid of change. People are afraid of things they don't understand. People are afraid of being minimized or their voices not being considered. People are afraid of being stuck or not getting the help that they need. And I think that's contributing a lot to the polarization and the heightened emotions. But it's becoming, whereas before, I would say it was more focused on, you vote for the policy that you agree with, but now it's becoming, you vote for the policy that you agree with, but you also vote again, like, there's much more you're pushing against the policy that you don't. And I see a lot of people being motivated by fear, and that's where I go, okay, well, let's actually address, like, what are you afraid of? You know, because I don't want people. I don't want people motivated. I don't want people to make decisions out of fear.
I want them to make decisions out of. Out of being feeling empowered or feeling hopeful. And so, you know, when we're looking at, we're having conversations with people and, you know, remembering you are human, you've had life experiences. But, like, maybe there's an external factor going on here that is scaring you. Right. And is causing these. These big reactions or the, or the. Or these, you know, this doubling down or. You know what I mean? I just feel like fear has become more of a motivating factor than ever. Right?
[00:23:45] Speaker B: Well, 100%. And I think some of the fear can be justified in the context of, when you look at, I mean, we can look at two specific issues. You look at the issue of free speech, for example, and whether or not we'll have the ability to have public discourse or even go to an abortion facility and just pray, you know, individuals of my ilk that believe in the dignity of life from the moment of conception want to go. And we want to end the slaughter of the innocents. So we want to go to the abortion facility. We want to pray. Well, in the United Kingdom right now, for example, they've gone so far that they will arrest an individual who's outside the abortion bubble zone, who's just simply there to pray, not there to hold up signs or to yell or anything of that nature, but is simply there to pray. So there's a legitimate fear that kind of free speech rights could be taken away. And that's where. So we have to fight for values while not fighting the person. Maybe that's espousing a particular view, another issue, you know, maybe on the other side. And I think this speaks into some of that fear, some of that challenge, you know, that social conservatives have like I do. And look, let me say this with it doesn't matter in my life, again, you know, I had lunch with an abortionist. It doesn't matter necessarily how you're living your life. I'm going to treat you the same and equal kind of no matter what. And in my own circle, I have friends who struggle with same sex attraction, and they're living kind of in relationships. But there's a difference of beliefs and views as far as how that should be played out kind of in the public square or culture. And I happen to believe that St. Thomas Aquinas, you know, he would say that, you know, all law should be based upon what is the natural law. So when we look out and we observe nature, that should inform our decisions as far as what should be true or what should be legal. But that natural law is based upon something even deeper than what we see. It's based upon the creator and who created nature. So that's based upon the divine law. So when I was saying before that, a lot of these conversations go back to some really deep personal things. When I would speak to college students at Bowling Green State University, where I was a campus minister for some time, we would begin by talking about, you know, abortion and things of that nature. But if we could sit down and talk long enough, eventually the conversation would lead back to, well, is there a God? Is there a moral objectivity here? Is there good? Is there evil? Or is there not? Or is everything just simply, you know, are we just a mass of different cells that have just, you know, suddenly appeared here in history?
So when you get into those types of conversations, though, and, you know, again, I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's how civil society should recognize that there might be others on the other side that are fearful. Gosh, Peter's looking to take away my rights that I've been told that I have.
So I can understand where some of that fear comes in. And I think the challenge for us is to say, all right, our positions, our worldviews, our thoughts may indeed affect us personally. It's certainly affecting the Preborn personally. It's ending their lives because abortion is legal in so many states right now.
So how do we passionately fight for what we believe is truth and justice while always remembering that the individual that we're speaking to is made in God's image and likeness and is deserving of a seat at the table to at least communicate their thoughts and beliefs?
[00:27:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I had kind of an I, an internal challenge with myself a number of years ago when I started really, when I kind of got out of my bubble and started really considering why I believed what I believed on policies and things like that.
And one of the first things I decided was I'm going to withhold having a really strong opinion on any policy until I know somebody who is directly impacted by it.
Because if I'm doing it just from my limited experience, then I'm going to have limited data. Right.
[00:27:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: You know, my view on Medicaid, you know, availability changed. When I moved to the inner city.
My husband and I lost our jobs. This is years ago. We had nothing, and we had to be on Medicaid.
And I went, oh, okay.
I understand why people can get into the politics of people taking advantage of it or whatever, but I was put in the middle of the inner city where with a lot of poverty and a lot of people who desperately needed Medicaid. And I went, huh? I need to. I need to reconsider some things, you know, and it's. It's not allowing ourselves to really get stuck in our, our way. Right. Because the thing that's so beautiful about the United States of America is that we are so diverse. We are so diverse, but everybody needs a seat at the table if we are going to come to good, solid solutions. You know, that, you know, to address problems. Like, we need everyone in the room. And when we get stuck in kind of our own echo chambers or in our own experiences, or we're only talking to people who are exactly like us, we're just not going to consider other thoughts or even be challenged. You know, there's things that I've changed my mind about because somebody was really thoughtful and having a conversation with me about it. And I went, you know, that's actually a really good point. You know, and I've changed some people's minds, too, you know, especially on abortion.
[00:29:34] Speaker B: Well, we have to allow, I think, for. And I'm sorry to interrupt you.
[00:29:36] Speaker A: No, go ahead.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: But I think we have to allow for a little nuance in some of these political conversations. Like you can.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely.
[00:29:42] Speaker B: You can have a solid foundational belief. Another issue, for example, that's hot button topic in the country right now is in vitro fertilization. Right. So I have a kind of a solid principle and belief here that in vitro fertilization leads to, based upon the way that it's practiced in the United States, some very serious issues and challenges, including eugenics, where we're choosing the strongest embryo, we're implanting that one, and then we're just disregarding the other embryos or freezing them or whatever it might be. I don't think we should be doing that as a country and society. However, at the same time, I can. With friends that I have, who they achieved a pregnancy through the in vitro fertilization process, I can rejoice with them that their child is here, and I can celebrate their life, and I can celebrate their birthdays and things of that nature, because I believe, not that someone gets their value worth based upon how they're conceived, but based upon the fact that they are. That they exist.
[00:30:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:36] Speaker B: And some people say, well, you gotta be all one way or all the other. No, I don't think that's the case.
[00:30:40] Speaker A: I don't think that's the case either. And I think that's where, you know, I think you and I have managed to have a very good friendship, is that. I think nuance is the key, because, you know, Allison and I have had. If you go back and listen to the first episode, it's very similar. It's her and I talking about how different we are, but how well we work together. And it all comes down to understanding each other's intentions, knowing that, you know, she knows that my intentions, at my core are good, but we can just be nuanced. We could just say, like, things are not as black and white as we want to be. We have to control for the human experience. That's what I tell my team all the time. Like, we can have really solid views, and those views can be, you know, true and godly and amazing, but you have to control. You have to consider the human experience, and that's just gonna make it complicated.
[00:31:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm just sitting here thinking if we would probably go down a list of issues. Right. That are all kind of up to for debate in the foot. We probably disagree on a lot of them, if not most of them.
[00:31:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:31:54] Speaker B: But there's the fact that there's mutual respect here.
[00:31:56] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:31:57] Speaker B: There's a mutual understanding that we're both seeking the truth and what a gift that is. And so many of our political conversations, they happen behind screens today. Ironic that we're behind a screen here a little bit.
But with that being said, I really encourage your listeners, if you are having a Facebook discussion or you're having a Twitter discussion, I think we should have those because I think that's a place where people are at good and healthy to talk about these issues kind of in public forums. But don't lose sight of the ability to send a private message to that individual you're speaking to and invite them out for a cup of coffee, to invite them out for lunch, whatever it might be, so you can build that relationship. And when you're face to face with somebody, so much of communication is nonverbal anyway. You're going to learn if you need to pull back a little bit and it becomes less about trying to win an argument and it becomes more about loving the person, and that's what we need to get back to.
[00:32:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And I do think that there's a false sense of security in the sense that a lot of people are willing to say things behind a keyboard that they would never say to somebody's face.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:59] Speaker A: You know, and I think that's caused kind of a little bit more of the hostility is that we can kind of hide behind devices.
And I read some of stuff, and I'd say, you would never actually say that to a person.
And so really filtering what we're saying, like, would I actually look at this person in the face and say that directly to them? So, you know, unfortunately, not everybody is as amazing as we are.
I'm joking. You know, a lot of people do struggle with nuance, and that's why we've gotten to the place that we've gotten to.
You know, I do know people who have had to distance contact with even family members. I've had my own hard conversations with family members and who are unable to take this approach. Right. Who do get hostile or I, you know, struggle when we do try to have nuanced conversations and it does become a relational conflict. You know, like, how do you think we should handle the people that are in our lives that aren't here yet, that can't quite do the nuanced thing yet, and are still taking the more combative and hostile approach.
[00:34:28] Speaker B: Well, it might seem really simple, but in conversations, I think I always find it really helpful when I'm listening to someone, maybe articulate their perspective or maybe I ask them a question. And I think that's a good way to do things as well, is ask questions, rather than just kind of tell people, you know, what you believe. But it's to compliment the other person. And you can do that in small ways at the very beginning of the conversation, even to say, hey, I like the shirt that you're wearing today. It does just kind of soften the atmosphere a little bit in these conversations, which kind of help you move forward. So I think that's first and foremost is just to compliment others. The second thing is, you know, as you're going into these conversations or even post the conversations, you have to kind of think of things. And I think this is helpful for all of life. When you're on your deathbed and you're looking back on your life, how would you want to treat this person, put what you're doing in the very moment into kind of a whole entire life perspective. And whenever I'm discerning kind of a job or, you know, when I was marrying my wife, it was this thought of, well, what decision would I have wanted myself to make if I was sitting on my deathbed? And that helps you take a step back and really, again, treat that person as love in the moment. Now, because some of these things are so personal to us, we're not going to be able to help getting fired up. At times. It's okay at those times to say, you know what? I need a break. I'm going to step away. I love you. And because I love you, I need to go take a breather. Nothing wrong with doing that. And there's also nothing wrong with saying, you know, in the midst of these conversations as well. You know, I don't know. I'll have to, you know, that's a really good point. Let me go look that up because I didn't hear that before. You know, maybe you can share that resource and I'll take a look at it, and then let's come back and talk about it later as well. Again, we get into this moment where, like, we gotta win this conversation right now.
And because we're winning conversations or trying to, we're losing people at the end of the day, and we're just kind of furthering the divide.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
I take the therapy approach where I just set. It's almost like gentle parenting, you know, I just say, hey, like, you might. We can talk about this. Like, if you. If you can talk about it, like, respectfully. Like, I will not discuss this unless you. Unless you can talk about it respectfully. Now. If you can talk about it respectfully. Totally. Let's talk about it. If you cannot, then we just won't, you know, like, I take a. Probably more of a offensive approach where I go, like, you can have an opinion, but you may not be rude.
This is how I talk to my daughter. You can be sad, you can be mad. You may not be rude. Right? So it's almost like there's been times where I've said, like, oh, this might be a little tricky for you right now. Like, maybe we should. Maybe we should put this on the table or, hey, I would love to have this conversation with you. I think it could be super productive.
Let's do it when we can be respectful. You know, I'm not a therapist, but.
[00:37:33] Speaker B: I think that's great to kind of set boundaries at the beginning. I just set back chase, look, if things are going to devolve into name calling and things of that nature, I'm just going to walk away. And I want you to know that ahead of time because I really want to have a productive conversation. And I love you, and quite frankly, I don't want to get into that shouting match. So I think that's a really good and healthy thing to do, and maybe I'll bring that more into my marriage as well.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: So, yes, let me tell you, setting boundaries can be applied everywhere, but it's especially helpful when trying to navigate. Like, you just. You set your terms. Yes. If this is how it's going to be, we will not engage. If this is how it's going to be, then we will engage. And I think especially when you're thinking about having thanksgiving with your family, because it's always about, like, what's going to be said around the Thanksgiving table. Like, you choose your terms on how to engage. And even if, and I have to do my own work to say, like, am I in a good place to navigate these conversations? Because if I don't feel like I can do it in a way that without, you know, feeling reactive, then maybe that's not the time for me to engage in these conversations, like, really assessing where am I? Where are they?
Is this going to be productive?
And if it's not, maybe that's not the time to have the conversation.
[00:38:52] Speaker B: Well, absolutely. And I think, you know, what you're saying makes me think a lot about identity as well. There's a desire within each one of us to be known, to be loved, and to belong. And I think because we've pushed God to the horizons in our culture and our society today, so many people are searching for a place to belong, and I am one that believes that belonging to a local church community is a tremendous blessing. It's a blessing for the individuals who go, and then it's a blessing for the community at large when those individuals bring their gifts to the table in a particular church.
But because so many people were seeing in statistics so many people not going to organize religion or going to a church, there's this desire to belong. There's a desire to be a part of a tribe, if you will. And they're finding that belonging in a political unit or a political party. And so when you're identifying yourself or some of your identity is kind of found in the political party you're in, it's going to make you fight even more harder, because when someone is presenting a different worldview or different thoughts in a particular subject, it feels like, gosh, they're attacking my identity, part of who I am. And it's like, well, no, we're not attacking you, but there are different ideas that we got to get to the table so we can find the best solution here. So that's kind of the danger that we're facing in this current situation as well.
[00:40:07] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think, yeah, absolutely. When you were talking about earlier about things coming from our being motivated from our worldviews, I had that exact thought and I was like, well, that would be, that kind of explains why we take things so personally. Because if it's coming from something so deeply rooted in us, like our worldview, sometimes it's hard to separate that I am not my views, you know, but we have to. We have to take that same approach to the other people. They are not their views. But, yeah, when you're talking about something that's deeply personal, and I honestly think that's one of the reasons why the abortion issue specifically is so volatile, is because people who have had experiences with abortion are so deeply impacted that to criticize that decision or to say that decision was wrong, they feel that so personally because that was something that was so deeply impactful negatively, you know, predominantly to their lives. And they have to grapple with something that is extremely difficult to work through. And I think that adds to how emotional people get, how reactive people get. Because we're talking about subjects like when it comes to same sex attraction and abortion and even immigration. I mean, we're talking about people's family units, and that's something that's so deeply personal. And so how, you know, trying to navigate that stuff with care, understanding that we are talking about things that are so, so a part of who they are. Right. And that's just hard. That's just hard.
[00:42:00] Speaker B: You know, 100%. It's incredibly hard. And I think of even the sin in my own life and the sins that I've committed, and, you know, maybe I've been called out by my wife or I've been called out by a brother in the faith. And, you know, sometimes I react kind of like I'm trying to protect myself. I'm like a marshmallow with barbed wire around me. Right? Like you. You prick something. And I'm kind of afraid of going there. But we have to remember that it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to kind of be vulnerable in these conversations and say, I don't have all the answers at the end of the day, and that's okay, because, again, it's not about winning the argument, but it's about loving the other person.
[00:42:38] Speaker A: My husband Aaron will literally be like, you've got your fists up. Because I'm like, I get defensive. And he was like, you know, put your fist down. Because I'm like, no, no. He's like, it's okay. No one's trying to fight you. And I'm like, they're trying to fight me. He's like, they're not trying to fight you. So he always tells me, he's like, get your little tiny fists up. Hypothetically.
I got my fists up.
Yeah, I.
This is my. I feel like I've kind of stumbled into my life's work, you know, on top of the center for client safety. But it's a. It's a big. It was a big value when we first started, I said, if we're going to do this, we're going to do it in a way that's kind and empathetic and nuanced, and we're going to focus on the thing about abortion that the average person can get behind. Right. This is really accessible. Like, nobody wants the 87 year old with shaking hands doing surgical abortions, right? Like, we're going to find something that we can agree on. And when we engage with people, we're going to do it in a way that is informative information first. Kindness and empathy first. We're going to lead with that because I'm just not interested in the sarcasm and the pithy comments and the, I just, I don't find it productive. I'm like, who are you trying to convince? Because I've never seen anyone's mind changed by a sarcastic tweet about their reviews. Right. And what it has turned into is so many people coming out of the woodwork going, we have needed this message so badly.
We need voices that are willing to take this approach, and we're tired of this extremism and this polarization, and we want to connect. And so, which has resulted in this podcast. And thing is, like, I never imagined that that was the value of our organization that would be highlighted so much, right?
But it just shows that people want it, people are looking for it. And it might not seem like it because that's not what we see on the news, right. Because the news is going to play towards the extremism, the polarization, but the average person is somewhere in the middle, and they're not interested in that. And I think that that group is growing. I think there's, especially as Gen Z comes up, Gen Z, say what you want about them. They are empathetic. They are, they are kind like they care about their fellow humans, right?
And I think we're going to continue to see this growing middle of people going, we got to find some way to connect. We are not interested in this polarization.
But I mean, it's kind of, it's, it's hard to talk about all of this and how contentious politics have gotten without addressing the elephant in the room, which is Donald Trump, because his entrance into the political world seemed, in my opinion, create a political chasm where the divide existed before. And I'm not saying he's solely responsible. He's not the only cause. That's just where I mark things, as when they started getting really fever pitched. And it's no secret that the pro life cause is largely tied to the Republican Party platform.
So how do we take our approach, take our nuanced approach, build bridges, maintain relationships with people who disagree with us?
When our most important value is tied to a person, that just evokes strong negative reactions. You know what I'm saying?
[00:46:58] Speaker B: Yeah. No, that's a very challenging question. And I do think in a lot of ways, the division in american politics, very much deeper than Donald Trump, as you even mentioned, it's not just him that has caused the current division, but certainly because of the cult of personality around Donald Trump, it is certainly created. And the way that he uses language and the way that he speaks and speaks about other people it has certainly helped to kind of further the divide in the country when it comes to politically speaking.
Also, that's been exacerbated, though, by the media, which has also kind of taken some of his caricature and just presented only one side of things. And, you know, even in the Democratic National Convention, if you watch any of that Riesling, my wife's like, why do you watch both of these conventions?
[00:47:47] Speaker A: Oh, I watched all of it because I want to be informed. I don't want to just hear what people have to say about it because I don't, I, again, do they have an agenda? I want to know for myself what was said. Right, right. So. Right.
[00:48:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's why, you know, whether it's Donald Trump or Joe Biden now holding the office of the presidency, it's so important that those individuals, as much as they can, are truth tellers rather than spreading lies because their platforms and podiums are so big that whatever they say is going to have a ripple effect across the country. So, you know, it was repeated at the DNC that, you know, President Trump, in referring to the incident in Charlottesville, that he said that, you know, the KKK and people of that ilk were very fine people. But if you go back and watch the entire tape, he wasn't speaking about those particular individuals. So we do have a challenge in the media today. I mean, you even look at, for example, you know, President Trump proposed no taxes on tips. And the way that was reported at the time was that's going to cost, you know, such and such billions of dollars to the federal treasury. But then when Kamala Harris came out and said it, you know, that was going to her fighting for the working class. So you have that struggle and you could come up with, you know, ways that things are presented by conservative pundits and so on and so forth.
[00:49:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:13] Speaker B: As well.
[00:49:13] Speaker A: You look, yeah, it goes both ways. And that's why I say it's not solely responsible. But that's where I, that's really where I mark, and he hasn't helped either. But it doesn't, it's where I mark the chasm. Right. It's like all of a sudden, because of how the media was taking these candidates, what people were saying, everything together just became chaos. And so whether we like it or not, our issue is still tied to somebody that has been presented this way and we have to overcome that. Right?
[00:49:49] Speaker B: Yeah. I think the Gospel coalition, they had an interesting, and not everybody likes the Gospel coalition, but I was reading a little bit of an article they had earlier today. And they say that individuals in office, whether they're Donald Trump or not, they tend to vote on their party platform. So Republicans, Democrats, conservatives, liberals. So it's really important for people to go back and kind of read those party platforms to understand kind of where the parties stand on a myriad of different issues.
But Donald Trump is his own unique animal. And I think the only way we address it, we address him or any other political leader, for that matter, is we live it. You know, reminds me of, it was the english newspaper that asked the country, hey, what's wrong with the world? And GK Chesterton wrote in and said, I am sincerely yours, GK Chesterton. So I know that we want to point to Donald Trump and maybe some other political figures as well that kind of come to mind. But look, they are a reflection of who we are as a nation. And that's scary because some of the things that, for example, I'm a social conservative, and social conservatives were hammering, and I believe rightly so, President Clinton when he was, you know, there was affairs happening within the White House, and we talked about as social conservatives, character matters. Yeah, but then it seems like, you know, when Donald Trump comes along, we say, well, character doesn't matter. It just matters about his policies. And I want to say it's both. It's both who that person as an individual and also their policies.
And so going back to, you know, our conversation on politics, too, it is okay to hold some really strong, fundamental positions on policies, but it's the spirit by which we present them and we live them, which is just as important. And we lose that ability today because it's 100% you're in or you're against. And I just don't think, going back to that nuance point, that that's the case. And one last point I'll bring this to. I have been very critical of President Trump and his stance on the abortion issue. The Republican Party, under his leadership, has now become much more kind of pro choice in their approach that, look, if California wants a particular policy, that's fine, but if Ohio wants a policy, they can have their policy. I don't think this is a states rights issue any more than slavery was a states rights issue. If something is a moral issue, it's either good or bad, and we need to live that out. But there's some Republicans that have even told me, hey, tamper down a little bit. We don't want to necessarily cause any trouble here.
Look, my first allegiance is to God himself. It's to conservative principles and then down the list, it's to the Republican Party. And when we mix that up, going back to that identity piece, when we make our identity, first and foremost our political party, we're going to put politics over principle. And that's going to cause these political conversations to go haywire really quick.
[00:52:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think a big part of that right now is abortion is a losing issue because we just had this huge win with the reversal of Roe versus Wayne. And I keep explaining to people, yes, that was a big win, but what's going to happen is the pendulum is going to swing the other way. And that's why we lost all of those ballot initiatives. It was too much too soon. You know, anytime there's an election one way, you know, if a Democrat wins, there's going to be a big push back the other way. And, you know, the Republicans are going to take something. That's just how it works. It's how it's always worked.
[00:53:27] Speaker B: Well, you look at the end of slavery in this country. We had the emancipation Proclamation. The slaves are free. We moved into the Jim Crow era where blacks were still subjugated as lesser than human in our society.
There is a lot of work that we need to do in hearts and minds for the years to come, even though that row is now gone. And you're exactly right. We see that pendulum, Swain, but it doesn't mean the truth isn't still the truth.
[00:53:50] Speaker A: Right. But the people that are putting policy over principle are going, well, if it's not a winning issue right now, then we need to take a step back. And I go, no, no, no.
It's not about, like, I understand the strategy of, like, you want to win so that you can get your policies in, but at the same time, there are some things that are just non negotiable here. And I would consider the pro life value one of those things of, you know, you can't, you can't say you are 100% pro life and then all of a sudden want to take it off the table because it's not a winning issue. Well, then you need to change your messaging. You need to address why it's not a winning issue. And that's because most people are misinformed. You know, the abortion industry has done a great job at scaring people and, you know, telling them things that are not true.
If abortion is made illegal, and, like, combating the actual issue of people not understanding that ectopic pregnancies do not result in abortion, like, all of this misinformation is why it's nothing a winning issue. Like, let's address that stuff instead of just going, I don't want to, it's going to hurt our campaign. No, you need to actually get the truth out there 100%.
[00:55:13] Speaker B: And I'm not a political expert, but I think there's ways that President Trump could have very well said, look, I'm pro life, but I'm focused right now on making sure people can afford bread and milk on their table, how I'm living out kind of this view. But he's gone kind of the other direction. He said, well, I'm supportive of reproductive rights and so on and so forth. I mean, he's using the left's language when it comes to the issue of life. So unfortunately, I think that's going to really damper a lot of enthusiasm from social conservatives like myself. And, you know, if you're a conservative and you want someone who's going to elect at least and put around himself conservative individuals, that's scary to me because that's an important piece of the puzzle of the electorate from the republican side.
So, you know, looking back on this time, we'll see how things play out. But at the end of the day, it does have ramifications, no matter whether he wins or loses for years to come about how we talk about the issue. And I think, again, going back to an earlier point you made in the podcast, we can as pro lifers, I mean, first and foremost, it's okay just to say, look, I'm pro birth because I'd rather be pro birth than pro death. However, we're more than that. And we are the individuals. Like here in the state of Ohio, where we have 125 pregnancy centers, where we're caring for women well after the child is born, we are working through catholic social services to help with housing and food and transportation to work.
So all those things we are working on, we just need to be willing to kind of tell that story. Story. And I understand we don't want to beat our chests in the sense of, like, to brag, but there is a time to say, look, we're the ones and we're caring for women and we're caring for moms in our society today.
[00:56:54] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I totally, I totally agree.
It's hard. But this is when you choose to do the hard thing, like take the harder road take, because this is when, this is how we get long term impact. You know, like we might not get the viral moment of saying something, you know, clapping back at somebody, but when we use nuance when we live it out, when we are true to ourselves in the long term, people see that, and that's how people's minds are changed. I mean, I have so many friends that are pro choice, and they look at me, they go, you don't fit into my stereotypical, you know, pro life activist. And I go, uh huh. You know, and then I talk to them about what I do, and they're like, okay, okay, that makes sense. And I'm like, uh huh, yeah. And did you know these things, like, just sowing that distrust into the abortion industry? And they're like, oh, I didn't know that. Uh huh. You know, and it's playing that, not even playing that game. It's not a game, but it's being committed to the long term of building relationships, of really changing hearts and minds. Right.
[00:58:21] Speaker B: Being consistent. It's consistent as a person, the way that you love every individual that you encounter. And we stop looking at people like the enemies, and we rather see them as God's son or daughter that he really wants home, that he wants to care for. And to that effect, we can't lose sight of this in these conversations we enter into. This should have been my number one. But don't forget to pray. Don't forget to take that conversation to prayer. And then after the conversation is done as well, to pray for that person that can change the atmosphere as a room. And, you know, I've been in rooms with Democrats and Republicans, and I'll just say, hey, can we say a little prayer here? And it changes the way that individuals treat each other. And I've had more. Sometimes progressive politicians pull me aside and say, hey, thanks for praying. I needed that. And it wouldn't come from the individuals that you think it would come from. But, you know, when you pray, God can do things that are so far beyond what we could even say.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like it's a very grounding practice. Right. You're taking a moment. You are putting, you know, thinking of things outside of yourself. You are, you know, whether they're, it's Democrats and Republicans or they probably, you know, if they grew up in America, they probably have a religion of some sort, you know, are tied to, you're pulling on this common thread. Right. And I think it's just a way to connect with people, turn the volume down, have a moment of.
Of stillness, of quietness. Right. And that could really set the stage for that conversation. Right. Set the environment.
[01:00:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:00:02] Speaker A: Outside of the Holy Spirit working just practically. You're stopping.
You're being still, you're being quiet.
You are asking the room to be focused on not themselves. I mean, it's a good practice whether you're religious or not, you know, whether you pray or not, it's. It's a good. It's a good practice.
[01:00:25] Speaker B: Well, and it brings us back to, you know, why do we have ultimate meaning and purpose in the first place? Is it because, you know, we've, you know, grown out of the primordial soup, or is it because we have a creator, we have an intelligence that's behind all of this, you know, mess that we're living in today, but it's still somehow held together, and they're still, you know, as they say in the Lord of the Rings, you know, there's still Frodo things worth fighting for. And, you know, in my own life, I don't have to look farther than my kids to see that on a daily basis. As I see them smile and look up at me, they're the reasons I continue fighting. Missy, as we're talking about prayer, I don't know if this has ever happened in your podcast. Let's pray right now. Why don't we do it? So, heavenly father, thank you so much for the gift of Missy, her work, and everybody who's listening to this show today. Lord God, I pray your blessing and grace and peace, the peace which surpasses understanding upon them. And, lord, we pray that if someone doesn't know you, doesn't know your voice, but is wondering if you're real, that they might at this moment experience your realness, that they might be able to touch you and experience you in a profound and powerful way. In Jesus name do we pray. Amen.
[01:01:29] Speaker A: Amen.
All right, so before we close, I always like to take a minute and kind of get outside of our pro life bubbles, you know, because especially as pro life movement leaders, sometimes we get, you know, little tunnel vision. Right. And I love to ask our guest, what do you do off the clock? Now, the caveat is it can't be about your family, your wife or your children, because that's a given. We know that they are your favorite. Right. We know you love being a husband and a dad. So outside of those two things, what is your favorite hobby?
[01:02:08] Speaker B: I have always tremendously loved sports.
[01:02:11] Speaker A: Really?
[01:02:12] Speaker B: Yeah. I played football, basketball, and baseball and high school. And the beauty, just like when you hear a professor who's really intelligent, just is at the top of their game.
[01:02:24] Speaker A: Oh, I love it. Anybody who's an expert in their field, you love watching someone be the best at something.
[01:02:30] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. So I don't like them so much anymore. But, you know, when LeBron James was jumping 3ft above the rim and dug, it was poetry in motion.
[01:02:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:02:40] Speaker B: So in the same way, you know, these individuals who kind of commit themselves day in and day out to a particular craft and then they become really good at it that it just becomes like psalm.
I think it's beautiful. So I love sport, and I think it draws out, like, the Olympics.
[01:02:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll say. Okay, so we just finished. So in our house, the Olympics are on 24/7 like, we just turn the tv on and whatever is on, we are watching. Like, all of a sudden, I am a fanatic about diving.
[01:03:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:03:10] Speaker A: You know, like. Like, all of a sudden I'm like, yep, badminton. Amazing, right? Like, I don't. I don't care that I don't know anything about it. I love that they are so impressive, like, at this thing. So were you, like, watching the Olympics all the time?
[01:03:25] Speaker B: I was, you know, I was so disappointed with the opening ceremony that I had to kind of just give myself a few days before I could jump back in.
[01:03:32] Speaker A: But it was interesting.
[01:03:34] Speaker B: Yeah, interesting is a way to put it. But there was an olympian, I can't remember his name, and I'll go back and look it up, but he was a british runner, and he said something of the nature, like, when I run, and he was famous because he wouldn't run on Sundays. That was the day of Raston. He wasn't going to run a race on that particular day, but he said something of the nature, like, when I run, I feel God's joy. And that, again, I think when we was at St. Irenaeus, who said, the glory of God is man fully alive. So whether it's against sports or intellectual pursuits, whether it's doing a podcast, when people are at the best of what they do, there's something that is very human about it and so human that it enables us to kind of touch the divine grace that God has given each one of us to be alive.
[01:04:25] Speaker A: Yeah. So what was your favorite. What's your favorite sport to watch?
[01:04:29] Speaker B: Favorite sport to watch is probably football. You know, it's. And I have mixed figure feelings about it just because you can get hurt in football and with all the concussions and stuff now, but, yeah, just the ability to, you know, to throw a pass and have somebody catch in the end zone and digits a little bit. I enjoy doing that a lot.
[01:04:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm trying to remember who's your team? We've talked about this before.
[01:04:55] Speaker B: I'm from the Cleveland area, so the Browns have. Have always been a team.
[01:04:59] Speaker A: No, I'm sorry about that.
[01:05:00] Speaker B: I've learned a lot about suffering. That's also led me into the pro life movement.
[01:05:04] Speaker A: Listen, as an Auburn fan, I can, like, truly understand.
Like, I truly understand. I'm like, when are we going to be good at a sport again? Because I just. I'm really tired of losing.
[01:05:18] Speaker B: To explain me the difference between the Tigers and the war Eagles and how both of those guys are diving, because I don't understand.
[01:05:27] Speaker A: The same way that Alabama has an elephant and they're crimson tide, you know? I don't know. We're so good. We need two mascots. I don't know. I don't know. Okay, so the Cleveland. Cleveland Browns. That's who you're watching.
And any other favorites?
[01:05:42] Speaker B: Yeah, so I attended the University of Notre Dame, so I root for the Irish when it comes to.
[01:05:46] Speaker A: Okay, that makes sense. All right. I'll give you that one.
[01:05:49] Speaker B: And then dad attended the University of Illinois, so I also root for the Illini as well.
[01:05:53] Speaker A: Okay. One of the few division one programs whose matt scott not end with an s. Interesting.
[01:06:00] Speaker B: I did not know that.
[01:06:01] Speaker A: There's, like, nine of them.
[01:06:03] Speaker B: Okay, well, thank you for that.
[01:06:04] Speaker A: Tell me you grew up in football country without telling me you grew up in football country. That is so fun. I love, I love this because I learned so many interesting things. Like, I learned Alison, one of my best friends, she loves snowboarding. Did I know that? Absolutely not. I did not know anything about the fact that she loves snowboarding.
And I've just had some really, really fun. Anton Kresek from seven weeks coffee, loves golfing.
You know, my answer was not the first, like, non sport related. I said gardening.
[01:06:33] Speaker B: Okay.
[01:06:34] Speaker A: You know, I'm a big gardener, and.
[01:06:38] Speaker B: I should connect you with my wife. We have two little garden. She made me build her in the backyard, and he loves it.
[01:06:42] Speaker A: So, yes, get my hand in the dirt. I want flowers, herbs, anything. I'll grow it. And I have, like, over 50 houseplants in my house, so that's what. That's what I do.
[01:06:54] Speaker B: Well, that's probably a subject we could agree on, because I think so much of our food nowadays is just overproduced and stuff they're putting in. It's not good for our body.
[01:07:02] Speaker A: Listen, one of my peppers from the backyard. Oh, it's just. It just is so fresh.
Oh, so good. So good. Well, thank you so much. I loved this conversation. I think people are going to really enjoy it, especially right now, when a lot of people are just feeling discouraged and frustrated at the state of our political environment, that there are some people trying to do the work, to reach across the aisles, to build relationships, to maintain relationships, and have these conversations in a way where we can actually get something done right and, you know, care and value people in the process. So I'm so thankful for you. I'm so thankful we have voices like yours in the movement.
And I think it's more important than ever that we are yelling from the rooftops, like, this is something that we need to be doing as a movement and implementing in all of our practices.
[01:08:07] Speaker B: So amen, missy, great to be with you. Always good to see you.
[01:08:10] Speaker A: Yeah, amazing. Thank you so much for joining us today. Remember, episodes drop every other Friday and are available for everyone to hear. So help spread the word by reading, reviewing, and sharing with your friends. And don't forget, when you buy your next bag of coffee, use our link in the show notes with seven weeks coffee to support our work. For more information on the amazing work of the center for Client Safety, visit centerforclientsafety.org. and you can also find us on socials at center for client safety. You can find me on socials at Missymartine Stone. See you next time.
