Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: This is Missy Martinez Stone and you're listening to the Centered Podcast, where we have unifying conversations on the divisive subject of abortion.
Hi and welcome to the Centered Podcast. I'm your host, Missy Martinez Stone, and I am so excited for today's episode. Our guest is Monica Snyder, the executive executive director of Secular Pro Life. This organization focuses on advancing secular arguments against abortion, creating space for atheists, agnostics, and other secular individuals interested in anti abortion work, and building interfaith coalitions that leverage secular perspectives. Monica brings a fascinating background to this work. She holds a bachelor's degree in chemical biology from UC Berkeley and a master's in forensic science. After volunteering with Secular Pro Life for over a decade, she became its executive director in 2021. Monica has a keen interest in the biological facts surrounding the abortion debate, which adds a very intriguing dimension to your work, if I say so myself. Today we'll dive into her journey, how she became a pro life activist. The work of Secular Pro Life and the bigger conversation that fits into the theme of this episode is strategies for finding common ground on this issue of abortion. So, Monica, welcome to the Centered Podcast.
[00:01:42] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: So you and I are relatively new friends, but I would say fast friends.
From our first conversations, it was very clear that we were aligned on a lot of things. And those conversations got so interesting I thought, why we should probably record one.
But I actually realized that I don't know your full story yet. So go back to the beginning. How did you even get involved in pro life work? And then with Secular Pro life, sure.
[00:02:16] Speaker B: It'S the same question, really. I got involved. Actually, I got involved because I started arguing on the Internet. And it's funny, I laugh about it because most people that I talk to seem to think that that's a total waste of time. And I think a lot of times the way people do it is a total waste of time. But it happened to work out for me that it was life changing. So I got on Facebook not that long after it came into existence. And back then, Facebook had these discussion boards that were really set up for more long form discussion, more than anything that they have now. And the long and short of it is I got into a discussion board about abortion. It was the first time in my life that I really grappled with the issue. It was certainly the first time that I spoke to people who disagreed with me and started to kind of get a better idea of why there are two sides to this conversation.
But more importantly, this particular discussion board attracted a very certain kind of personality. And that is. You've seen the XKCD cartoon that says, I can't come to bed, someone's wrong on the Internet. That personality, which is me and probably three to four dozen other people, pro choice and pro life. Like, this is. This is the commonality, you know, two commonalities, obsessed with abortion and someone's wrong on the Internet. And so you had, for the most part, the same core people debating this issue. I'm not exaggerating. It was probably almost every single day for like 12 to 18 months or something.
[00:03:44] Speaker A: How old are you at this point?
[00:03:47] Speaker B: 21, I think.
So you get to know people. Like, the debate boards would have a dozen threads about different aspects of the abortion debate. And then there would be a thread that said something like, did anyone see the recent Harry Potter movie? Or something. Cause it's kind of. You're just. It's like a more lighthearted version of when you hear about sidewalk counselors and clinic escorts who sort of get this uneasy truce where they. They're like, hey, Bob. You know, that kind of thing.
[00:04:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: So it was like that. And it was enormously, enormously good for me. Because when you become friends, not just friendly, but friends with people who disagree with you, first of all, you're going to have a better understanding of why they disagree. Second of all, it's good for our mental health because it inoculates us against the totally understandable, completely human tendency to vilify our opposition in ways that are just not accurate. And so because all of a sudden.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: It'S attached to a person that you actually.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: That I know. Yeah.
And it sounds silly, but it is absolutely true that when your buddy likes the same movies as you and you have similar ideas about what you want to do in college or just almost any common ground at all, you're going to calm down a little bit. There are disagreements, and it makes it much harder to start to believe the tempting and false narrative that when you're in group A, everyone in group B is actually really evil and stupid. Like, that's not real. And so.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: Back up even more. So you're 21. You're on these, like, forums, like, where did your pro life view even come from? I mean, was this like something that you grew up with? Or is that something that, like, because I grew up in lower Alabama, I didn't even know what abortion was until I moved to D.C. like, we didn't talk. It was one of those things, you know, in the south, like, you just don't Talk about it.
And once I understood what it was, and I went to a church that was surprisingly, an evangelical church that was very vocal because a lot of pro life leaders with their. Tina Whittington, you know, Eric, you know, they knew me when I was 14 years old, and so I did not know that.
[00:06:05] Speaker B: Really.
[00:06:06] Speaker A: Yeah. So Tina was. Tina and Eric were mentors of mine when I was a little annoying teenager.
But I didn't even understand what it was until I was probably like 14, 15, and then they would take us to March for Life. But once I understood, I was like, oh. Like, my gut was like, oh, this is obviously so, so wrong. So where was that view even starting?
[00:06:28] Speaker B: I mean, pre memory for me, my parents are and were anti abortion. And in much more than just a, you know, sort of philosophical way, they really lived it out. They weren't. I wouldn't say they were to the level of, like, activists. It didn't come up that often, but when it crossed paths with our lives, they made it very clear by their actions that this is very serious and it's important enough that we need to be doing something about it. And in particular, the really pivotal story is when I was. I was less than 10. I might have been like 7 or 8, I'm not sure. But it was back when Operation Rescue was really big and getting a lot of press and stuff. And my dad was very intrigued by this. He didn't know anyone involved, but he read the stories about it and he was kind of moved by it. And he decided to go to the abortion clinic in our area just. Just to kind of see what was going on. He didn't really have a specific plan of anything he was going to do, but he went to this clinic. He knew the sidewalk counselor there, and he happened to go on a morning when she was talking to a woman there to get an abortion because she had nowhere to live. And so the sidewalk counselor comes up to my dad and says, this is my situation. And my dad calls my mom and says, this woman wants an abortion because she has nowhere to live. Do you think we could just house her for a while? And my mom said, sure. And so I'm the oldest of five kids. They put us into two rooms and then they took the extra room and they had this woman live with us for the rest of her pregnancy and for a few months after the birth. And as a child, for me, nobody is verbally saying this, but you watch this happen and you know what your family does is normal. So, right.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: You're like, everybody does this, right?
[00:08:20] Speaker B: Everybody does this. And so for me, it wasn't like, wow, I can't believe we did that. It was like, yeah, this is what you do. This is deeply, deeply serious. It's a grievous problem. And you gotta, you know, contribute. And so that's the most poignant example. But throughout my whole childhood and teenager, it was something we talked about. I don't remember when I learned what it was. I just remember knowing what it was. And in fact, I was so against it and so emotional about it that pre Internet, I had never talked to any pro choice person about it at all. I could not comprehend how anybody could support this, which makes sense that I never talked to anybody who did. And I was afraid, especially in high school, I thought that if I found out someone I was friends with supported this, I would be obligated to stop being friends with them. And so I didn't want to talk talk about it because I wasn't afraid of people stopping being friends with me. I thought I would have to stop being friends with them. And so I didn't speak at all. And of course, I say all this with kind of a wry smile because that's basically the polar opposite of what I recommend people.
That's not doing anybody any good.
[00:09:33] Speaker A: But as a high schooler, you know, we're doing the best with what we can, you know, and. Cause I felt that, you know, I was very much raised in, like, the black and white world and. And it was very similar. Like, once I understood the gravity of the situation, how I think for me it was how big, how pervasive it was, like, this is millions upon millions of children. And then you put that up against, like, how innocent the victims are. Like, I just went, oh my gosh, you know, But I was in the same boat of just like, I genuinely could not understand how people could take that view. And obviously now you and I have talked, like we're very good at engaging, but.
[00:10:19] Speaker B: And I meet pro lifers who feel that way all the time now, and in fairness, pro choicers too. And now when I hear that, I think, well, of course you don't understand because you haven't talked to them.
[00:10:29] Speaker A: Have you tried to understand?
[00:10:31] Speaker B: And it's interesting because there's almost like a fear.
I'm not trying to speak for everybody, but I think for me as a high schooler and for some people now, there's almost a fear that what if you talk to them and it's more reasonable than you thought? And now you have to think about what you believe. And I wonder if part of the reason I'm very, very comfortable now talking with whoever, whenever is because the likelihood of them challenging my pro life view is minimal. I'm trying to still be open, but I'm not.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: You're more secure in your side.
[00:11:03] Speaker B: You could say, whatever, and we can talk about it. I doubt that it's going to threaten the underpinnings of my worldview, but, you know, if it does, don't I want to know that?
[00:11:12] Speaker A: Anyway, so you have this world. You end up online.
You're in these forums. How do you. Is Secular Pro Life already a thing at this point?
[00:11:25] Speaker B: No. So this was probably around 2006 or 7, and one of the people in that core group of three to four dozen obsessive debaters was Kelsey Hazzard. And so this is important because a year or two later, she contacted me and she said, hey, I think there needs to be an organization for pro lifers who aren't religious. And I know that you aren't religious. Do you want to help me? And I said, sure, but did you.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: Grow up not religious and then. No, actually grew up religious and then deconstructed and became not religious.
[00:11:59] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the word. Right? I. I always say deconverted, but, yeah. Yeah, I was raised Catholic. My. My mother is still Catholic. Tragically for her, most of our family is. Not anymore. But. Yeah, but no, I.
My deconversion, My deconstruction took probably about 10 years, and Kelsey caught me 60% of the way through it, maybe. So by the time I met her, I was an agnostic. And she knew that because we had talked, like, every day on this debate board for a year or something. I don't know. I don't remember how she knew that, but she contacted me and said, she's trying to do this. Can I help? And I said, sure, thinking that it would essentially be exactly what I was already doing, which is arguing online. And it was originally that. That is what it was. She made a separate Facebook page that was called Secular Pro Life. And then in the beginning, in those first few years, Kelsey was the engine that. That created the whole.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Because what. So what year is this?
[00:12:52] Speaker B: 2009 is when she found.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: So I started at Students for life at 2013. Okay, so. Because I remember, like, I remember Kelsey meeting Kelsey way back in the day, I think, kind of in the. In the beginnings, but.
And we would use a lot of, you know, those resources, you know, for students, and that's all her.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: Man. I was your right hand woman for a long time. But the. She created a website, she created a blog, she created an email address. She started soliciting guest bloggers just. And she's like this to this day. Get some kind of idea, and she'll just decide, this is my project now, and then she'll go nuts on it. And I was very flitting in and out the first many years, like, I might have something to say or I might do something. But basically what happened is over the next few years, continually, to our surprise, people kept asking more and more of us and seemed to find it useful. And so it got. It went from a Facebook page to a whole organization. People started asking us to do college presentations, and people started asking us to speak at conferences. And almost every new level, I felt shocked and also felt obligated, like, if they're gonna give us the opportunity, we should take it. Right? But we were never. For years, we weren't really proactively trying to grow the group. It was very. Just whatever happens, happens, you know? And then a pivotal moment came in 2018. Teresa Bukovinak had joined us several years ago. She's our board vice president. She's also similar to Kelsey. She gets a project and she's like, I will do this now. And she's.
[00:14:20] Speaker A: They're visionaries.
[00:14:22] Speaker B: They are.
[00:14:23] Speaker A: I am not.
[00:14:23] Speaker B: I'm the cautious one in the team. I'm like, how are we paying for this?
[00:14:28] Speaker A: They're visionaries. We're implementers.
[00:14:30] Speaker B: Right?
[00:14:31] Speaker A: You got the vision. I'll make it happen. Right? Yeah, yeah.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: And Teresa and I compliment each other very, very well in that way. She pushes me to actually get things done, and I make sure she makes them sane, pays the bills and.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: Right, exactly.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: Very complimentary, but. So in 2018, she decided to host a pro life conference at UC Berkeley. That's her style. Like belly of the beast.
[00:14:51] Speaker A: Let's go.
[00:14:51] Speaker B: You know? And at the time, I lived Sacramento, which is an hour and a half away. It's not that far. And she contacted me and she said, will you present at this conference? I've never presented at any conference of any kind. She doesn't even. She doesn't even care what I was. What do you want me to present on? I don't care. I just want you to present. Okay. And so the long and short of it is that's when I created what has been one of our longest standing presentations. Now it's called Deconstructing Three Pro Choice Myths. The current iteration of it has 82 citations. It's very. It's kind of technical. And it's the whole. The whole idea of it was, you know, if I'm a Berkeley student, which I was a Berkeley student, so I know what it's like to be Berkeley student. If I'm a Berkeley student and I have the courage to publicly go to a pro life conference at UC Berkeley, what's my mentality? What do I need? And, you know, Missy, I've been to a lot of pro life conferences. They often have a lot of great content. But in my opinion, pro life conferences tend to be high on emotional encouragement and maybe not as high sometimes on, like, actionable information. And so I wanted to go completely in the other direction. I designed the MIS presentation to be something that anybody, regardless of how they feel about abortion, you could be pro choice, pro life, whatever. What I'm saying is factually true. It's actually verifiable. And so I picked things that I could show through evidence. What I'm saying is true. You could still be pro choice or pro life. But if your stance is based in part on these myths I'm about to describe, I would ask you to think about that. And so I got really excited about it. I spent 66. 0 hours creating this presentation.
[00:16:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:18] Speaker B: And I loved it. I would wake up in the morning and think, oh, my gosh, I can add this. And I go to Starbucks and get.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: Some work done and sound like me on a case. I'm like, I'm gonna, like, do all this research. Yeah, Right, right, right.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: And so. And it was wonderful, and people loved it. And it's been one of our best presentations. I've given it many, many times since then. But the point of this story is that I took off work to do it, and my family lost money that month because my family was pretty low income. And I can't do that.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I can't do that.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: And the reason this is pivotal is because after it was over, I talked to Kelsey and Theresa, and I said, guys, love you so much. I can't really afford to volunteer the way I was before. I mean, we started in community college, you know, with a lot more flexibility. And Theresa said, charge people.
And I.
I know that sounds so ridiculous, but I never had. Because I want everyone to have this information. I want it to be as accessible as possible. And so this was a pivotal moment for me because that's when I first started actually thinking about how nonprofits function. And, Kelsey, we didn't incorporate as a nonprofit till that year. Before that, it was just whatever. It was just like Whatever. We have time to get done in the background. Nobody's really running this thing by now. Kelsey's a practicing attorney.
[00:17:22] Speaker A: Yeah, she's a practicing attorney, right?
[00:17:24] Speaker B: Yeah. She has a full time job. She's beginning to look into foster care. Like, we all have much more complex lives than when we started. And it was just like the youth who had time to argue for hours on the Internet every single day don't exist anymore. And so thankfully, Theresa is out there saying, we could still do this. You just need to be smarter. You know, could you be smarter? And then. And so I start charging for it. And to my shock, and not to Theresa's shock at all, people pay for it. They were perfectly happy. I've never asked anyone for money for anything. And I'll say, can you give me this much? You're like, yeah, whatever. And then I'm mad at myself because wait a minute, I could have been doing it.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Why was I not charging for this? Yeah.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: This was the first step down a longer path I won't drag you through. That resulted in us bringing in enough support to hire me.
[00:18:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:07] Speaker B: And so in 2021 is when we hired me as our first full time staff as the executive director. And since then it's been fabulous. Now we have, we've brought it up to a staff of three.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: Amazingly, I mean, trust me, I understand how big that is.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: Every addition you have is life changing.
[00:18:25] Speaker A: Yes, it is. Yes.
[00:18:27] Speaker B: And our staff are amazing. One hour from them is worth five from a mortal. Right. And so, so. And we have also, very importantly, second Pro Life has such a fabulous team of volunteers, highly organized, highly talented, highly devoted, which has allowed us to do outsized work for our size and budget. So, so yeah, that's what's like the.
[00:18:48] Speaker A: Day to day now. Like executive director of. Other than arguing with people on the Internet, like, what is, what is the, the primary goal here? And. And what are you guys actively working on?
[00:19:01] Speaker B: So tragically, I had to enormously rein in arguing with people on the Internet. It's not actually a great use of time most of the time, but the day to day. So for the most part, we spent the majority of our time for many years crafting not only secular arguments against abortion, but the social media content to make them accessible and digestible to people, which is a whole thing.
[00:19:20] Speaker A: Wait, wait, wait, pause. Say that again slower because I think this is so interesting. Make it what?
[00:19:26] Speaker B: Make it accessible and digestible to people online.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: I just want to preach. That is such a good way to phrase it, because I talk about that a lot. The accessibility of these ideas, these, These thoughts, these. You're introducing somebody to whatever you're challenging their view is what you're saying, accept accessible to them. But I love that you added digestible.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: Yes. So. And this cannot be overstated. So I think in the first multiple years of secular pro life, we were trying to figure out what exactly is our stance and kind of honing that position and dealing with the most common pro choice responses. And what would you say to this and all these things? And we spent years kind of developing that. I'm not pretending we came up with it all on our own. There are tons of great thought leaders on the pro life side, and we would see what they're saying, kind of grab the elements that make sense to us. But there is a delivery issue with making sure that it is secular. And here secular is much broader than simply the absence of prayer or referencing the Bible. It's difficult to articulate, but there are lots of little connotations and ways in which people can sense if you are speaking their language beyond just the literal exact point you're making. And so because Kelsey Trees and I are all atheists, we already kind of intuitively get how something sounds almost without even articulating it. You can hear someone say a point that you totally agree with, but you're like, but I would say it a little different way if I was trying to talk to a secular crowd. And so there was a lot of that. That was the first few years. But after a while, to be blunt, I mean, what are there, like, 20 pro choice arguments in the end? And pro life ones, you know, the same.
You won't spend forever developing that. Eventually you kind of.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: Yeah, everything always ends up back at these, like, core.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah, there's two core issues. Fetal personhood and bodily rights.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: The two core issues. And then there are different iterations and important things you need to be able to address. But in terms of the content, eventually, like, you kind of. You've got it right. So then the next phase is instead of me arguing on the Internet personally all the time, which I am unfortunately still extremely susceptible to, I have all kinds of protocols in place to. To get my job done, you know, now we're trying to train everybody that likes our content to do it. It can't just be us. We're trying to multiply this effect. And there's sort of two categories here where there are what I call our ground troops, which is everyday people who are not activists who care about this issue and have all these Complex lives and they only have so much time. If I could only tell them a couple of things to help.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: Here's just some tools to have in your pocket for when the discussion comes up. Right?
[00:22:06] Speaker B: That's category one and that's where we spend most of our time. But since I took on the position as a full time job, the second category, and this is much more niche and arguably maybe more important, is trying to interface with our ally and sister groups and with other pro life activists who also have their own followers that aren't even our followers. Like whole bigger multiplier effect and try to help them hone their space in that. I'm not trying to make everyone secular pro life, that would not be helpful, but I am if there are little things they can do to tweak what they're already doing and dramatically just make.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: Their outreach a little bit more effective. Yeah, it's just again.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: So our day to day involves a ton of content creation. It's still our bread and butter. We have content coming out our ears. We have so much content, our main problem is figuring out how to schedule it in a way that it doesn't all overwhelm itself. Sure, sure, that's still huge. But more and more I have staff and volunteers who are taking that over. For me, it's actually a little difficult because I'm like, oh my gosh, this takes so much time. But I love doing and so I have to kind of give it to them unwillingly so that I can do a ton more basically trainings and trying to develop the random conversations I have with people where I spout off something, some advice and they say that should be content. That should be content that's accessible on your website. And I say, oh, okay, you need.
[00:23:30] Speaker A: To be doing higher level stuff that only you can do.
[00:23:33] Speaker B: So have these one on one conversations that are delightful with people that you can see the resonance. And then I'm like, I'm doing this the stupid way. I know I need to put this in front of hundreds and thousands of people and I am still figuring out how to do that. And then of course I believe it because there's commonality with our groups in terms of. So I know you know this. I'm saying for the benefit of your listeners. In a post Dobbs era, more than ever, more and more of the people who make up the pro life movement are realizing that while we've had traditional ways of trying to persuade people, traditional ways of trying to get laws passed, and I'm still fine with any of those if they're working increasingly, as this has gone from federal to states, and then in different states, different localities, you have to have multiple tools in your toolbox. This is why center for Client Safety is so fabulous. Because you're like, you know, here's something nobody is doing that's totally doable.
We will do it.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: You know, put that tool in your tool belt. Yeah, right, right.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: And it does. It doesn't take away from any of the other efforts other people are doing. It's just that if this is a way that you can also, like, it's almost low hanging fruit because nobody was touching it.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:37] Speaker B: And I feel the same way about our work. The pro life movement has a ton of thought leadership that like, there are so many pro life books on the philosophy of the pro life position and how to make your case. And that's good. I think we outgun the pro choice side on that enormously. And there's also, to a lesser extent, there are people that talk about the biology also and all these different aspects of like, why at its core, philosophically, scientifically, ethically, our position makes sense and you should hear us. And I'm glad we have that. That's a really good bedrock. But generally speaking, a lot of the organizations and leaders and activists are accustomed to describing all of this in a way that really welcomes in Christians and conservatives, which I want all of the Christians and conservatives. I also want literally everybody else.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: Everybody else.
[00:25:26] Speaker B: And so we feel that it's important to understand your target audience and be able to adjust your messaging slightly depending on who they are. There's nothing wrong with that. And we feel that there is a really a huge unmet need for messaging and welcoming in of many other groups. And we're not the only group who does that. You know, I made the analogy before that if the pro life movement is a high school cafeteria, then second, pro life is sitting at the alt table with Democrats for Life.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: Right, right, right. But you're the only, I would say, because we've had this, We've had a similar conversation about, like, it's not that we're the only ones doing like enforcement. The way that we are of filing the complaints is that we're the only group, that this is our entire focus. Right, right. And so it is different because, like, there are groups that do this as a part of a bigger thing, which is great, but it's different when this is your entire mission, your entire focus. Like, there is no other group on the national level that only does what we do the way that we do it right and that what I would.
[00:26:32] Speaker B: Think, Correct me if I'm wrong. That also means that because this is your entire focus and you're gonna have a lot more opportunities for basically trial and error, that puts you in a good position. So when other groups are doing this as part of the thing, you can be like, hey, here's a couple little tweaks.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: Here's some tips. Yeah, I will share. I'm like, take what I'm using.
[00:26:47] Speaker B: I would love to have a lot more people doing this. I don't want ownership. I want everybody doing this same. Yeah.
[00:26:54] Speaker A: I will say one thing that struck me because I love all of this. This is so cool.
I love the secular approach. But there's this additional layer to your group that, again, I was not aware of on your website because you have. And I love how you lay it out. So if you go to secular pro life and you go to about and you see the three of you, it's your pictures and your biographies, and it literally says, like, you are politically conservative.
Kelsey is politically conservative, moderate. And then you have Teresa, who's politically liberal, but you are all atheists and you're all, you know, active in the pro life movement and against abortion. And I think that that creates a really fascinating dynamic because, you know, when we talk about villainizing other people, like, that is a really common place to get stuck. Right. That we go in. Right. And so I imagine that leading alongside other women who are so politically different from you does require a lot of intention.
So tell me how you agree on being anti abortion, you agree on being atheist, but then you have this whole other piece, because I know all three of you, and I know that none of you are shrinking violets, and you're very vocal about where you stand on things. How do you navigate those differences?
[00:28:21] Speaker B: So there's two main aspects to why we work together so well. And I will say Kelsey and Theresa and I have been friends for years. We like each other a lot. And part of the reason we're able to navigate those differences is because we have personal friendships. And like we were saying before, when you are friends with people you disagree with, it just gives you more space to have those disagreements and overcome them than if we were just professional acquaintances. And I've seen it go both ways. So the two aspects are actually having personal friendships. There are. Our commonalities are much greater than our differences.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:28:56] Speaker B: You know, so we are politically different, especially Theresa and me. Kelsey can kind of go with whatever she needs to, but Theresa and I, it's like, okay, well you can be wrong about that, you know, kind of thing.
But it doesn't matter because we care so much more about the abortion issue than about our other differences. First of all, that we are happy to work together where we can. And also we all three of us share the idea that it will be more effective to fight abortion if more different kinds of people are doing it. So we want to kind of lean into those differences and understand where. For example, you know, I do vastly more content creation than them because I'm a full time staff and I want to make sure that my conservativism doesn't seep into the content in a way that is irrelevant and alienating. And you know, who's in the best position to let me know if it is Theresa? Yeah, I ask a million conservatives to share my same vision of wanting to welcome people in. But when you're in group A, it's hard to understand. Group B, just ask group B. Just ask group B. And Teresa could be like, that's not how we say it because that means this and that means that. And I, we, we share the vision of wanting to be welcoming. So instead of me getting defensive and being like, well, when leftists say it like that, I mean, I don't care, tell me. I want as many people as possible to hear my point without feeling defensive. And so if that's the way to do it, great.
[00:30:18] Speaker A: I mean, I think that's where you and I are so similar. Cause I'm always like, I'm a sponge. I'm like, oh, that's the way to do it. That's what we need to do. Great, let's go. Like, I don't know.
[00:30:26] Speaker B: And so we, so the first thing is that we're actually friends and it gives us space to have disagreements and recover from them. And Theresa and I, there have been, you know, board meetings and things where sometimes other people have to be like, hey guys, I think we've disagreed enough, let's move on. But when we do that, we're not mad and we can hang out right after and get a drink and be fine.
So the friendship is the first thing. And the second thing is that as a matter of organizational policy, like this is in our FAQs, secular pro life is a single issue group. It is only about abortion.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: That's what we do.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: Not a consistent life group. And the thing is, it's ironic because if you look into the political positions of the three of us, we're actually pretty close to consistent life. But we Leave that off the table because we're trying to build as broad of a coalition as possible on this issue. We can keep debating other issues on the side, but if someone wants to help me fighting abortion, culturally, legally, whatever, and we disagree on like the death penalty, I still want your help on the abortion issue.
[00:31:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:29] Speaker B: I'm not going to tell you that because we disagree on this. Now if I could banish from the pro life movement the phrase, well, you're not really pro life. If I'll ever say that again. Okay. I don't even care. Right. Even if you think it, there are other ways to express it. Like, oh, I'm so glad you agree with me about these things and we can work together on this while we keep talking about that instead of, you know what, you're not on my team. I want everyone on my team. Hold on, please do not kick them out.
[00:31:57] Speaker A: So I made a very me in our leadership, but I really led the effort on this of in the beginning when we incorporated, I said we are only going to take a stance on abortion. Like we're not going to take a stance on any other issue.
We're not going to be religious, we're not going to be politically affiliated. Like we are going to be a one issue. Because I said when you add other things in, you leave, you leave talent on the table. There's people that, that want to be involved. And also it just again creates that accessibility because when I talk to people, like when I, especially when I talk to reporters, anytime I do an interview and I'm like, which is this is going to get me into my, my next point. But when I do an interview and I'm like, they're asking me about my work and then they ask me, you know, is this a religious, you know, I'm like, oh no, we're not religious, we're not politically affiliated. And, and if anything my, my kind of go to language is like regardless of where you even stand on abortion, most people can get behind what we do because the people were shutting down. Like everybody is like, eh. And I had this really beautiful moment over Thanksgiving because my best friend on the planet is my sister in law, it's my husband's brother's wife.
[00:33:18] Speaker B: So I have that, I have that same thing.
[00:33:20] Speaker A: Yeah, we are, we talk every day. I mean we have, we. My husband, I've been married for 10 years and it's really in the past like three or four years that her and I are just whatever, like, like close, close. And my mother and she is not, she Works in, she's a licensed therapist and works predominantly in prenatal, postnatal, like infant loss, like, like any, basically any type adoption, anything in the, in the mothering, birthing world that could be trauma because she's been through all of it, you know, and, and she is just a force in that world. But. And she deals a lot with complicated pregnancy terminations, you know. And she is pro choice and she will tell you that she actually agreed we're going to do an episode together.
[00:34:16] Speaker B: Really.
[00:34:16] Speaker A: But my mother in law said that somebody in our family actually asked her like, are Brooke and Missy like friends? Because they knew that we were so like opposite on this thing.
And I laughed and I said not only are we friends, like she is my best friend.
[00:34:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:38] Speaker A: And she defends me to. Because people are like how your sister in law is a pro life leader. And she goes no, no, no. Like this. She deals with medical abuse. Like, you know, but it was so amazing to say like not only are we friends, can we navigate these complicated discussions? But she's my best friend.
[00:35:00] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, so I was in California basically my whole life until a couple years ago. And all my friends were pro choice except my then boyfriend, now husband. And this isn't a formal requirement for secular pro life. I've just noticed we've organically filtered for this. Our staff and our volunteers who are most dedicated and involved. They tend to be people who either used to be pro choice and or currently have very close relationships with people who are pro choice. And again, it's not a requirement and there are tons of people who do amazing pro life work who don't fit those two categories. But for the kind of work we are trying to do, it is very helpful if you either used to be from that group or you're still maintaining relationships with people who are. Because that's who we're trying to talk to.
And it's a lot easier to talk to a group if you see them as full complex human beings and you are comfortable sitting with disagreement and still getting along. Now this is all very ironic, Missy, because secular pro life is terminally online and everything we're talking about almost never works online.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: Right.
[00:36:07] Speaker B: You know, those are, those are different things.
[00:36:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: But you can still set up a basis for the people's in person conversations with the things you say.
[00:36:15] Speaker A: Yeah. When I'm, when I'm interviewing people to hire, you know, I'm like, I make it very clear. Like we are strategically, like we are non religious, we are non political. I and I asked them I'm like, my only requirement is that. And I said, and our team is even as small as we are, we are very diverse, like, politically, religiously. I mean, we are literally across the board.
And I say my only requirements are that you're against abortion. And are you a kind and empathetic human?
[00:36:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Our job description says it's a requirement that you are comfortable working with people of a whole variety of backgrounds.
[00:36:50] Speaker A: Can you navigate? And I demand respect. I'm like, you guys can disagree, but I demand respect.
Like, and there have been times where I've had to correct employees and be like, hey, that, well, you can't have.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: A functional organization otherwise.
[00:37:06] Speaker A: No, but it's like, no, I'm serious about that. Like, we can, we have different views. And if you want to talk about it, totally. But you're going to be respectful. And I think that culture just lends to building more of that. Like, we're talking about accessibility, we're talking about on ramps, bridges, and that.
And our work, my. Our mission of shutting down abortion facilities, I see very much as like a bridge building piece, because I can go, I know you're not against abortion, but, like, this guy is a sexual predator.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the frustrating thing, is there. There is so much in the abortion debate that if we weren't very partisan and very tribal, and I say we as like the American people, I'm not. It crosses a lot of lines. There's so much that is organically, should easily be common ground. And I find what happens when I try to emphasize common ground with pro choice moderates in online content.
We have trolls and detractors on every single platform. Some of them are very dedicated to us for years. And if I try to emphasize common ground, they'll accuse me of being inauthentic. Because, for example, let's say that I have content that says later abortion is horrific for these reasons and everybody should oppose it. And then we'll have a troll or detractor say, well, you want to get rid of abortion in all nine months. So why are you pretending? I'm not pretending. I will tell you straight up that I want to get rid of abortion earlier than that. And I'm going to keep arguing with you about that. But while we're arguing about that, we already agree on this. What's the argument? You know, and so it's frustrating because issues of later abortion, issues of especially coerced and unwanted abortion, issues of decreasing the demand for abortion should all be very easy common ground. When I talk to my pro Choice friends in person, in real life, not online. And we're friends and we're not trying to convince each other of anything. We're just chatting. There's common ground all over the place.
I do worry a little bit about the people we are training to debate online and to debate people. I'm really glad for anybody who is pro life and willing to do anything about it, willing to speak up about it, willing to talk about it. I appreciate all those people. I do worry that we encourage people to be a little too online, which is where you start to really think, man, everyone is actually a psychopath. Twitter will make you think that. Okay, it's not real. It's a very specific kind of environment and it doesn't translate in my experience almost whatsoever to anytime you're talking to someone you actually know in person. So I don't know. I want people to put their resources where they would do the most good. For some people, they're very well equipped to be spreading these ideas on the Internet. And people do change their mind from online arguments. Everyone says, oh, no one changes their mind. Yes they do.
[00:39:43] Speaker A: Yeah. I was going to ask you. So like you spend so much time creating this curriculum and having these conversations like our minds being changed, like, tell me a story of somebody whose mind has changed. Or like, are you seeing kind of a. Because I was thinking about this earlier, like, yes, the pro life movement is predominantly like stereotypically Christian conservative people.
But as we engage on the secular level, as we make this conversation more accessible. I know pre Dobbs especially, there was a lot of studies that were coming out that people were actually leaning more pro life. Now that's Dobbs has kind of upended a lot of that. But are you seeing a shift, like a sorry, twofold.
Is this changing minds? Are we seeing minds change? And if so, is there an up and coming demographic of non religious pro life people?
[00:40:48] Speaker B: So it's a very good question and it's a little bit complex to answer because the problem is multifactorial. So if you want to isolate just the variable of does talking to people about this in a secular way or in a more broad brush, helping people come around to the pro life position, all else being equal? Yes, it does. But all else isn't equal because now, as you mentioned, we are still employing these methods in the face of a post Dobbs era of overwhelming media coverage and public discussion about very specific elements of the abortion debate that have captured the public's imagination and have created huge uphill battles for us in terms of persuasion. So the methods are still a good idea, but you might not be able to measure some up and coming new wave of pro lifers as you're battling these other factors. I would say it's impossible for me to say what's going on on the national level because I live in the secular pro life world and we're seeing a very specific kind of people come to us. But in our experience, there are two ways to activate a pro lifer. The first one is moving someone from pro choice to pro life, which is what by and large the pro life movement focuses on. And they should, I agree. But the second way that I think requires less resources and may be much more useful in the short term is to take a latent pro lifer and make them an active pro lifer. So it's two different paths. Right. And the difference I'm drawing here is a pro choice person and there's a lot of variability within that label. But broadly speaking, they think abortion must be legal for a variety of reasons. Now, they could be very uncomfortable with it. They could be very comfortable with it. They could think that there are certain cases, don't count, certain cases, whatever, I don't know. But you're trying to convince them that abortion should not be broadly legal. That's really what it is. There's a lot of pro choice people who already think abortion is immoral and they just have other hangups that don't translate to thinking it should be illegal. So that's one category. And a lot of pro life organizations talk about that. But in my experience, there are a lot of people out there, even if they wouldn't self identify as pro life, who are deeply uncomfortable with abortion, not just morally, but legally. And they've never thought of themselves as necessarily being involved or saying anything. But when they observe the issue, they organically lean very close to my perspective and they just haven't thought of themselves as being a part of any kind of movement that's the latent pro lifer. And in this way it's much less resources for us to activate them because we don't have to convince them that abortion is gravely immoral. We don't have to convince them that abortion is killing a valuable human. They already kind of think that all we need to convince them of is that they have any part to play in this. And one of the ways you do that is to make sure they know that they don't have to change anything else about their identity or their life to say, I don't agree with this. You Wouldn't believe how many people think that there's no place for them to speak up and there's nothing for them to say if they aren't specifically conservative and, or Christian. And even if nobody specifically told them that, that's the vibe that they get. And then we come along and we say, actually you can think whatever you want, you know, and you can say whatever you want. Theresa, who I consider the Tasmanian devil of the pro life movement. She is one woman whirlwind of activism. She originally wasn't involved because she's an atheist. That was the reason, that was the great ridiculous reason is she felt like she really wasn't. She was already very into animal rights and protecting vulnerable entities and seeing how society just, if they're powerless, they just don't care and they hurt these creatures, you know, and it naturally lended her to being very uncomfortable with abortion and very suspicious of it. And so why wasn't she grabbing a megaphone and doing anything about abortion? Because she looked at the pro life movement at large and she thought, there's really no room for me here. And all she tells people that I brought her into the pro life movement, which is a ridiculous exaggeration because all I did was exist and argue online. And she saw me arguing online and she saw secular pro life and she.
[00:45:01] Speaker A: Thought, oh, there is somebody, yeah, there's.
[00:45:05] Speaker B: No reason that I can't get involved with these guys. And then she took it to 11, you know, and Teresa's not the only one like that. Theresa is a unique person, but there are plenty of people who, they might not grab a megaphone and go urge people to do civil non violent disobedience, but they will talk to their mom about it or their best friend and say, you know, yeah, I don't know, I'm not comfortable. And that can be very powerful on a population level. And I just need to reach them and say, hey, you're allowed to do that. You don't have to be a particular political identity or a particular religious identity or anything to say, you know, this seems like a human rights violation and I am not.
[00:45:46] Speaker A: Right. Well, I mean, so I have, that was something that I was trying to debate of whether or not I wanted to ask is like again, the, the, the Catholic Church especially has done a. Is, is the reason the pro life movement exists. Right. Like, like the reason we have had the funding and the efforts over the past, you know, 50 plus years is because of faithful Christians, especially the Catholic Church. So hear me when I say, like, I, I am not Catholic, but I can truly honor what they have done.
[00:46:26] Speaker B: To what they've built.
[00:46:27] Speaker A: What they've built.
[00:46:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:29] Speaker A: With that said, as somebody, which I've said on my podcast pretty often is like, I grew up, I grew up in a very fundamentalist religious community. I have, you know, I have a very complicated relationship with religion due to my own, like, personal trauma at the hands of spiritual leaders. And that's, that's real, you know, it's a lot of people. So I don't, I don't, I still haven't figured out what I am. Right.
And even just that I'm not, I'm not a vocal. I wouldn't say that I'm an atheist, but at the same time I'm like, I just have a complicated relationship with it. And sometimes it could feel very isolating to be in a movement that is predominantly religious. And you know, much of the events we're going to have religious ideations and things like that. Like, how can we as a movement make not only the arguments accessible. Right. But the places and, and bringing more people in. Because I know that that's, that's a huge issue because a lot of donors, this is like the donors versus, you know, what is on the ground, boots on the ground. Whereas, like, we love our supporters, but they are predominantly religious. And that requires people to lean that direction. But if it's, but if it is creating barriers for us to do the work that we're doing because the people that we're reaching are not religious, like, it's just complicated, you know, I think.
[00:48:11] Speaker B: We are in a much better position to give arguments to the general public that are accessible across religious and political lines than we are to remake the pro life movement proper more accessible. That's what I think it could be done. I've gotten to the point where I'm happy to advise on ways people could tweak things to make them more accessible. There are lots of Christian conservative pro lifers who are very interested in that and they, they feel the same way I do, where they want this to be something that they could talk to anyone about and they want to welcome in as many people as possible. There are tons of Christian conservative pro lifers like that, but there are also plenty who, especially if they didn't ask me first, and I am like, hey, you know, if you did xyz, it might work better. It makes them feel defensive. And especially coming from an atheist. There are so many very, very vocal anti theist atheists online. And I have found that a lot of times Christians may not realize there are lots of different kinds of atheists and some of them are not like that. And that can be a barrier. Essentially what I think is I will happily give advice on how to make things more accessible to anyone who wants to, wants to do that. But I've got way more work to do than I can get done and I'm not gonna spend a lot of time and energy trying to convince people who don't want to hear it. And in my experience, yes, there are a lot of people who don't want to hear it. So then the solution is instead, unfortunately, maybe instead of trying to remake other people's spaces to be more accessible, I'm just going to build my own spaces. And if other people want to help, that's wonderful. But I have been frustrated, I have been frustrated over the years trying to explain how the pro life movement has so much great content. Every time I go to a conference or anywhere else, there's always at least a couple of talks that blow my mind. And then I think, man, I would love to make this a tweet thread. I would love to make this a TikTok. I want more people to hear about this. This is so amazing and compelling and important. And then I, however, however compelled I am by that content is how irritated I am that people are putting up these barriers to the content getting to more people. And so you and I, I don't know a lot about your background with trauma and spiritual leaders and all that thing. I would not say my experience with religion was overall positive and my deep conversion was quite painful to me. So it's a different path. But there's a similarity where I do find it emotionally exhausting to go to events, especially hours long or all day events that have just Christianity all throughout them. I'm not against Christianity and I have tons of people I love who are Christians, but it is emotionally exhausting to me to keep mentally filtering all of that out the whole time in order to participate in this. And I'll do it because I am obsessed.
I'm committed, I'm committed, I know what to expect. But I often find at the end of events, especially conferences, that I am angry, sad and exhausted and want to leave. And I can't wait to get out of there. And I don't know how to explain this to the people I love who are Christian or to the activists I want to work with who are Christian, because for them, adding these elements in is joyous and it's invigorating and it's encouraging and it's hard to translate how that's not how it feels to everybody. I don't think almost anyone, maybe literally no one, adds these elements in with any intention of alienating or hurting people's feelings. But they just. It's hard to accept, explain, and it is a huge barrier. So I went to a conference maybe a year or a half ago that was not billed as a Christian event. This is the other thing. This is the other thing. Okay, if you want to have a Christian event, that is your prerogative, but can you just say it's a Christian event instead of just only calling it a pro life event? And then it's incredibly Christian, which seems to imply that the assumption is only Christians are pro life, which you keep telling me you don't want people to think. But then this is. Why are you doing this? I've gone to pro life events that were billed as Christian events, and I was much less tense because.
[00:52:08] Speaker A: Because you knew what you.
[00:52:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:09] Speaker A: You knew what you were getting into.
[00:52:09] Speaker B: I knew what I was getting into. And you don't need to remake your world for me. If I, as an atheist, choose to go to an event built as a Christian event, that's my choice. You. You don't have to do anything about that. But I've also been to so many pro life events that were just billed as pro life events, and then you get there and they have literally worship teams on stage singing hymns, you know, and they have. I know that to Christians, there's much probably more specific criteria to what qualifies as a sermon or not, but to my atheist years, a lot of these talks are literally just sermons, and that's fine. Could you have just told me in advance? Because I do get really worn out, and I would not invite a lot of core, talented, dedicated people to these events. And it's not just religion, too, by the way. I have found that Christians, American Christians, for the most part, tend to be deeply familiar with the narrative that they need to separate, you know, church and state, and they need to secularize what they're doing. And whether they agree with it or not, it's a very familiar tune, and they're kind of like, expecting it. And there's not a horrible amount of friction when we discuss it, even if they don't agree with me. But where I have found, actually, the much more uphill battle is the politics. It's conservative. It's right versus left. And that frustrates me, because we know that at least one out of five Democrats thinks abortion should be illegal. All the time. And there are plenty of. It's same thing with Teresa. As an atheist, she already agrees with me and there's no reason she can't be involved other than she just thought that wasn't the tribe. You know, there are so many Democrats out there now it's the minority. Yes, I understand. It's still millions of people. Millions of people who are Democrats and aren't going to agree with conservatives on 25 other things. But we can all agree, like killing children in utero sucks.
[00:53:53] Speaker A: Right.
[00:53:53] Speaker B: And they have resources we don't have. They have access to social communities we don't have. They understand framing's priorities, ways of speaking that could make them much more effective ambassadors than a conservative trying to talk to left leaning people. They are a precious, important resource for advocating for the pro life position. And I would like to bring them in, thank them and activate them. And I would never invite them to a lot of pro life events because even more, perhaps, perhaps even more than bringing up the Christianity thing, people will just glibly talk about, instead of saying pro choicers say this and we disagree, they'll say leftists say this, Democrats say this. And then they'll make jokes about other issues that aren't the abortion issue. Not just disagreeing, but jokes, laughing, getting people to applaud and mock other leftist positions that aren't the abortion issue. And I'm just sitting, and I'm a conservative, I probably agree with them, but I'm just sitting here thinking I would never invite my friends who are leftist to these events. And now it's harder to get them access to this training, this information and these, you know, this support. Because why? Why?
[00:55:02] Speaker A: And my position on that kind of stuff is like, when I see it, especially when I see it like online and stuff, they take more of that, like making fun of the other side. I go like, whose mind are you changing? Because I don't know anybody that's ever, who's ever and mocked into a position. Yeah. And then my second question is like, especially when you're coming from that religious perspective, isn't the point to represent Christ? Right?
[00:55:34] Speaker B: Well that's not in my wheelhouse, man.
[00:55:35] Speaker A: Right. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying like, like, like if, if this, if, if this is going to be a Christian event or if you're going to pull in Christianity, it's like, hey, I, I don't think that's Christlike behavior, you know, and, and that's where I just go like, it's not just about Making this accessible to people who are not Christian or conservative, you know, and we're not saying, like, everybody has to bow to the minority's demands because that's gonna be like, no, I just.
[00:56:04] Speaker B: Want to be more generic. I just want it to be more generic and like a Rorschach test. Anyone can see themselves being pro life, you know.
[00:56:11] Speaker A: Right. But it's like, I. So yes, 100% I agree with that, but I want to take it a step further. And even if you do identify as a Christ follower, like, are is the way that you're engaging people is a way that you're talking about these issues.
Exemplify, exemplify that, you know, and that's.
[00:56:36] Speaker B: Just food for them. I think about things like that sometimes, but I never go with that line of argument because I have had a lot, you know, over 10, 15 years, I've had, I've had enough occasions where Christians try to tell me what I have to think as an atheist.
[00:56:52] Speaker A: So you don't want to tell them.
[00:56:54] Speaker B: I'm not gonna tell Christians what they have to think is a Christian, even if I have my opinions, like, that's fair. That's your problem. You know, you figure that out. But like, but I do think that.
So in the bridges presentation. So second pro Life, I have a presentation called Building Bridges that I give. It's designed for conservative Christian audiences. It's been wonderful. I think I gave it 12 times this year. And it's for, like, said there's lots of conservative Christian pro lifers who are like, I want to be more effective. Let's go. You know, and they ask this presentation, and it's great. And one of the things I talk about in the presentation, especially in terms of not just religion but politics, is I say, listen, don't answer me out loud, okay? But think in your mind right now which group of people you find, like, the most irritating. Like, you know, someone's popping into your mind right now. Okay. Especially if we talk about it in terms of politics or in terms of whatever. Just imagine the people that you just think are like the worst. Okay, now hold that for a second.
Now imagine you meet someone from that group who really wants to start doing anti abortion work. And everything else about them is the thing that you can't stand. Okay? Now hold that theoretical person in your mind and then just think. And any answer is, okay. The answer doesn't have to be, you will make this work. And you're the guy for this. You might not be the guy for this. You know, that's okay, but if for some reason you came across this theoretical, super annoying person who really wants to do pro life work, and they came to you and said, I want to get involved, what's your thought process? What's your answer? Okay, I want you to think about that now in advance. And it may literally never come up in your life. Okay. But I want you to think about it in advance because part of it is just testing your priorities. You know, will you think? And if this is the answer, this is why you don't have to tell me. This could be the answer. The answer might be like, no, I am not going to work with that guy. I can't do it. I can't do it. Okay. If that's the answer, at least now you're. You're being self reflective. And then, and then what I would ask of you is, think of who you could refer them to.
[00:58:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:58:56] Speaker B: You know, think of who you could say, like, well, maybe not me, but these guys sound perfect for you, you know?
[00:59:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:59:01] Speaker B: But I would like you to think, you know what, the abortion issue is more important than my irritation with these people. Or maybe they take a position that you think is equally horrifically like a human rights abuse. Like, there's a lot of very strong opinions in the pro life movement about assisted suicide. There's a lot of very, very strong opinions in the conservative pro life movement about transgender issues. We know this ibs, Maybe they hold. Maybe they hold on those issues polar opposite of you, and you think that it's deeply immoral and horrible. But for whatever reason they do to help you fight abortion, do you want them? You know, because I would argue you should. And we can keep arguing about these other things as we do it. And also, by the way, I've started to say this a little bit more publicly than I used to because my goal here is not to convert people on other issues, and it's definitely not to convert people on religion. But honestly, if you want to convert people on anything, religion or other political issues, you are vastly more likely to do it if you develop a long standing, ongoing, collaborative relationship with them than if you say you disagree with me on that. And I can't talk to you like, okay, real talk. There are not that many pro life atheists. Atheism is the most pro choice demographic in the country. Whenever we do find another pro life atheist, we are so delighted. Yeah, whatever you believe is what you believe. You can't pretend to think something different because it's more convenient for my political strategy.
[01:00:28] Speaker A: I understand.
[01:00:28] Speaker B: But when I see that. I just think, you know, the people who say, like, we can't work with you because you think X. What they don't realize is if you want them to stop thinking X, your odds of that increase if you work with them. Those are related.
[01:00:40] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. And that's, and that's how I approach like our work with the agencies, actually. Because what I've said to people is like in the past, whenever we find out that an abortion facility is doing something illegal or, you know, which is all the time, right?
The, the knee jerk reaction has been like, go to the media, get it out there. You know, And I go, I went, hold on.
What if.
Hear me out, hear me out because I'm not joking. I have gotten into rooms that respected pro life leaders. I still to this day, I'm like, you amazing pro life leaders. I've been doing this for decades. I have gotten into rooms that they could not get into. And they've even told me that they're like, we have never been able to get past this point. And I got into those rooms and they're like, this is groundbreaking. This is amazing. What did you do? And I literally was like, I didn't yell at them, I was nice, I was kind. I built a relationship with them. I went in and I was like, hey, I know you're so busy. You got so much on your plate. Help me help you. What do you need? What do you need from me?
And it just changes the entire position of now. They're willing to work with us because we haven't publicly thrown them under the bus, you know, and we, this is so related.
[01:02:06] Speaker B: It's funny because we're really oriented in completely different kinds of work.
[01:02:10] Speaker A: But there are, we apply the same principles.
[01:02:13] Speaker B: So what I tell people is, listen, you want to make it super, super easy.
[01:02:19] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:02:20] Speaker B: Someone would see that maybe they were wrong and you were right. How do you make that easy to do? You emphasize common ground. You affirm their good motivations and that you don't think they're a bad person. And then you ask clarifying questions and then you, you put it on yourself. This is really important. You're trying to make them as non defensive as possible. And so in my, I'm trying to think of the analogy for your work because what you said is very, very similar where instead of going into them and making them feel defensive by attacking.
[01:02:48] Speaker A: Them, because the position before has been like, they go in and understandably so upset. They're seeing these horrific things happening. They want somebody to do Something. But the pro life movement is so used to being kicked. Like, it's almost like, you know, so they go in and they're like, you do something about it.
[01:03:08] Speaker B: Right.
[01:03:09] Speaker A: Versus, hey, I'm gonna do something about it. And I'm going to get everything together and then I'm going to hand it to you.
And then it's so easy. Like, basically we do their jobs for them. Right. So it's like.
[01:03:20] Speaker B: Well, and I think it's really important for us to understand that there are a lot of different kinds of people on the other side. And while there are people who are, you know, super aggressive, bad faith actors, that just does not represent.
[01:03:32] Speaker A: It's not.
[01:03:34] Speaker B: So you still could come across them and it still could not work.
[01:03:36] Speaker A: Oh, no. We've had bad actors. Like, we have helped remove, you know, corruption people, you know, there. We have. There's corruption.
[01:03:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[01:03:47] Speaker A: We have uncovered it and dealt with corruption. That's all I could say about that. But genuinely, most of the conversations that Christine has with these. Christine, my vice president investigations, which if you, if you, when you talk to her, she is like, so unassuming. She's not. She's like kind of soft spoken, but she's brilliant. Like, she's like low volatility. Yeah. And she just calls and she's just like, hey. You know, she just asks questions and like, she's just built relationships with these people and she'll be like, you know, how do you think, you know, should they be licensed this way? And the state health departments have been like, oh, that's a. I don't know. That's a great question.
[01:04:28] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't remember the name for it. There's some name for it in online culture. It's some rule. But the concept that you should never attribute to malice. But what could be explained by ignorance?
[01:04:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Because that's what we go in. Assuming that people just don't know. But again, there have been times where we have, we have dealt with malice and I let them get there and then I go.
[01:04:51] Speaker B: And it's also not right.
I'm hearing you say it's not the majority of the cases.
[01:04:55] Speaker A: No, no. Most people, it's just genuine either ignorance or they just like, don't want to deal. They're just like, oh, my God.
[01:05:02] Speaker B: I try to tell an equivalent thing to our followers who are very online because very being very online, it warps your perspective.
[01:05:08] Speaker A: Yes. Because you really do think that everybody is.
[01:05:11] Speaker B: Yeah. You're dealing with a specific subset and a specific dynamic, and it is corrosive you have to. You have to be very intentional about. It is rough if you do it a lot. And they start to really think. I've talked to followers I like who are smart and who are dedicated, and they're like, you're being too nice. They really are just all sociopaths or whatever. And they'll show me examples of really horrible things, really horrible things that people have said online. I'm like, listen, that was a horrible thing to say. Here's. Here's my disconnect. What you just showed me just doesn't represent what most people think. That's what I'm saying, you know, And I tell them. So we say, what's it? You want to make it easy for people to say they were wrong? The worst way to do that is to make them think that the only way they can say they were wrong is to first admit that they were evil or stupid. If you require people to first go through the process of saying, man, I was really stupid or really, really horribly evil, most people just won't. They just won't. And I'm not even saying you're wrong. Some people are evil. Some people are stupid. But most people, it's more complex than that. And I'm more interested in getting them to see that I'm obviously right than I am in getting them to think bad things about themselves. So there's an equivalent here for you. It sounds like, where people go in and say, how could you let this happen? Why would you. Da, da, da, da. And the implication is you weren't doing this oversight because of bad motivations on your part.
[01:06:30] Speaker A: And they're going, I just. I didn't know.
[01:06:33] Speaker B: You know, it's much, much smoother for most of most cases. Again, you emphasize common ground. We're not that different, actually. We're actually very, very similar. And I totally get why you're saying these things, you know, and it frustrates me when I talk to pro lifers, like, I have no common ground with them. Yeah, you do.
[01:06:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:06:51] Speaker B: You guys have a ton of common ground. It's ridiculous. Like, nobody wants women to be hurt.
[01:06:55] Speaker A: Right.
[01:06:56] Speaker B: That's common ground, man.
[01:06:57] Speaker A: I kept saying, like, nobody wants women to die.
[01:07:00] Speaker B: Yeah, nobody wants women to die. Nobody wants this. This is an unforced error.
[01:07:03] Speaker A: Yeah, right?
[01:07:04] Speaker B: We all don't want this. So this should be easy, you know?
[01:07:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I call it misplaced compassion. Because I'm like, the compassion is real. They feel compassionate. The reason that they are. They are choosing to support abortion is that in their soul, they Want women to feel empowered, be safe.
[01:07:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:07:21] Speaker A: And that is inherently at its core a good thing. We want people to feel compassionate, but then they accidentally put it in this.
[01:07:31] Speaker B: You know, and it's even more detailed than that. We want people to feel compassion. We also want women to be safe and we want people to have control over their bodies. Like all these things you're talking about. Yeah, those are if you're stripping away, you know, the connotations of which tribe you're in. Yeah, I, yeah, I get it. And you can easily see how, well, meaningful, passionate people want those things. It's not. This is why. So it's delightful. One of my very best friends, I've known her since high school and she's pro choice and she's very, very left leaning and she, she operates in extremely pro choice circles and she is pro choice, but she's also best friends with me. And so what happens is I have not persuaded her to, you know, the right side yet. But, but, but she understands why I feel the way that I feel. And she'll be in these social situations that I have no part of and I don't even know these people. And they won't be talking about me personally, they'll just be talking about the issue generally. But she'll go to dinner with someone and the issue of abortion will come up and they'll start saying really ridiculous things about why do these people so obsessed with the clump of cells. And I don't even get why they're bothering. And she gets annoyed. Yeah, she's pro choice, my friend, is not that she says I don't agree with them, but it's not that hard to see why they think what they think. And so now she's like a pro life ambassador. A pro choice pro life ambassador.
[01:08:47] Speaker A: I was gonna say that's kind of my sister in law. She's like, no, no, no. Because they start being like, how could you? She's like, no, no, no. Like this is different. Like, you know, so it's kind of the same like her defending.
[01:08:59] Speaker B: My favorite was my study partner at Berkeley is pro choice and he and I used to talk about abortion all the time in a very like, I'm not trying to make you agree with me, just here's where I'm coming from kind of way. Right. I never did get him, but he moved on. He went to like Harvard or something. He works in some biochem lab there. And he was telling me about one time where he, he's in this lab with a couple other Guys, he's doing something at his own lab bench. They're kind of further away, and they start talking about the issue, and they're saying some pro choice talking points. And my friend who's pro choice, he's also exceedingly smart, and he just doesn't like it when people say things that are irrational. And so he went up to them and he said, that doesn't really make sense, though, because of XYZ reasons. And everyone froze because this is at a biochem lab in upper Education in Massachusetts. And they said, are you anti choice? And he was like, no, but your argument sucks, though.
[01:09:52] Speaker A: Good for him.
[01:09:53] Speaker B: He's telling me this, and I'm like, you sucker, you're doing my job for. You know what? I don't even need you to convert. Just keep telling them why they're wrong anyway. That's fine.
[01:10:01] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[01:10:02] Speaker B: Close enough.
[01:10:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I know we're getting close on time, and there's one more thing I want to get to, but I think what you and I had kind of connected on is that initially, and what. What we wanted the big kind of takeaway from this conversation to be is that at our core, like, we do very different things, right? But like you said, at our core, there is this position of, I love the accessible, digestible, meeting people where they are affirming their feelings, you know, and. And it's all based on a. Our own. Because what I don't want people to feel is, like, that I'm, like, being calculated, that I'm like, oh, this is how you win people over.
[01:10:49] Speaker B: It's compassionate, and it happens to also be strategically smart. So win, win, right?
[01:10:53] Speaker A: So it's like, no, I genuinely take this position because I value the people that I'm encountering, and I genuinely do want to reach people and work with them. And so it's coming from a place of, like, I'm. I'm using these tools as a way to show how I really feel, which is, you know, I want to be unified and working together and things like that.
But it does speak to the. To the broader movement of, like, taking this position, right? Of really looking at the way we are approaching anything, any mission, any goal, any whatever, sidewalk advocates, pregnancy centers, education, whatever.
Really looking at your strategy and going, am I doing this the most effective way? Is there a more effective way to do this? Is there a way?
[01:11:46] Speaker B: What are my metrics of success? How would I know if this wasn't?
[01:11:54] Speaker A: Am I leading with compassion? Am I reaching across? Like. Like, I think you and I have A really amazing gift of being able to look at strategies and go, is this the most effective way forward? And if so, what. How do we do? What do we do to. To adjust and rethink and really incorporate our good values? I think that's where there's that disconnect sometimes is that a lot of the people we're talking about that employ bad strategies, again, are coming from a great place. They're just not putting together that like, oh, this thing that I'm doing isn't actually representative of the fact that I really do care about people and I do want to reach out to them. They just get stuck on, well, this is just what we've always done and this is the strategy that we were.
[01:12:51] Speaker B: Or sometimes they just, they just have never had anyone talk to them about it before. I definitely have had conversations where like, I talked about people who get defensive or resistant, but I've also had conversations with people where I'll make a couple points that to me, you know, I've lived this in this situation for a long time and it might seem obvious, but I talk to them and they're like, oh, and they're totally willing to have more information. Like I said, when you have group A and group B, you need group B to tell you what they think. You're not gonna be able to, you're not gonna be able to intuit it very well without them. And so when I'm group B in this case, like we're about Christians and atheists, sometimes all it takes is for me to say, hey, I'm an atheist. And then immediately for the rest of the event, people will start kind of thinking about it just in those terms. I have this story from the Bridges presentation where I went to this event with like 300 people, California pro life leaders and a friend invited me. And early on it was an all day thing. And early on they're running mics to ask questions. Someone gives me the microphone to ask a question, and I said, hey, I'm Monica Center, I'm an atheist.
And my question is whatever. And me being atheist had nothing to do with the question, but I just wanted the room full of people I was about to be working with. Just be aware that I was there and keep it in mind as they're going through this event. And then later on, right before lunch, the MC is saying a prayer before lunch, super common. And that's fine. And I'm just waiting for it to be done. But in his prayer, he says something like, you know, Father, I want us to Remember that our enemy today is not pro choice people. It's not women who are getting abortions. Our enemy is actually Satan. And then he paused in the middle of his prayer with the microphone in front of hundreds of people, and he looked up at me and he said, monica, I'd be really interested to talk to you about how all this sounds sometime. And I was like, maybe not right this second, but. But all it took was me.
[01:14:26] Speaker A: He just had that, like, click.
[01:14:28] Speaker B: He's like, wait a second.
[01:14:29] Speaker A: As I'm saying this, I'm realizing there's an atheist in the room.
[01:14:32] Speaker B: And I've had the same experience from the other end where, like, I'm doing Deconstructing through pro choice Myths. My presentation, it's supposed to be for pro life or pro choice people, but almost always it's all pro life people that are watching it. And one time before I did it, a guy came up to me and he said, hey, I'm pro choice. But I was really curious about this, and for all I know, he was the only pro choice person in the entire audience. He probably wasn't, but, like, for all I know, but the fact that he came up to me before it and said that really helped me hone in my demeanor. The first time I ever gave that presentation, I intended it to be this sort of academic. Like, these are just the facts. But I was in a pro life audience where they're cheering me on, and I got really sarcastic and annoying, and then I couldn't use that recording because.
[01:15:04] Speaker A: It was helpful, right?
[01:15:07] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And so I get it. We all do it. You know, we're just sort of like, this is who I'm imagining is around me, and so this is how I will behave. And you just need one person to say, but also me too.
[01:15:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:15:19] Speaker B: And then you're like, oh, oh, no.
[01:15:21] Speaker A: I watch this happen again. There's so many parallels. It was just so fascinating because, like, the idea of enforcement and the way that we do it is a completely new idea, right? Because everybody, again, it's always exposure, exposure, exposure, exposure. And we go, exposure and pressure. Yeah, there's another way. And as soon as I introduce the idea to somebody, it's like they've never thought about it. But as soon as I, like, plant the seed, they go, huh? Like, that is so fascinating. And then all of a sudden, there's, like, seeing it everywhere. They're like, well, it, like, changes, like, their whole.
[01:15:52] Speaker B: And that's why it's so nice, because it doesn't. It takes the lightest touch I feel like that happens to me all the time, where someone smarter than me about something says this thing. And I think first, I think, this is so exciting. That is a great idea. And immediately after, I think, I cannot believe I didn't think of that.
[01:16:07] Speaker A: Right.
[01:16:07] Speaker B: I was like, there's got to be a name.
[01:16:09] Speaker A: I always get the. Why has nobody been doing this? I'm like, I don't know, I don't know.
[01:16:15] Speaker B: But let's move on. Okay. Like, yeah, that happens.
[01:16:18] Speaker A: It's hard to fundraise. I don't know. I don't know. All right, I know we're running out of time, so before we wrap up, I'm gonna do a huge pivot because this is how I love to end every conversation. I learn so much. I mean, people that I've known for years and years in the pro life space, I learned so much from them about this question. Because a lot of times we only end up talking about abortion, which is great, but I want to know about you as a human. So we always ask, what do you do when you're off the clock? And I know it's hard because you want to stay on the Internet and argue with people. And the other caveat is it can't be about being a wife or a mother, because that is a given. We know that about all the people. We know that they love their families.
[01:16:59] Speaker B: Smart move, man. Because that was gonna be my next answer.
[01:17:01] Speaker A: I know. I'm like, no, no, no. If you're in this movement, you love your partner and you love your kids. Like we. Duh. Like that's a game.
[01:17:07] Speaker B: Yeah, that's boring. I know.
[01:17:08] Speaker A: But I also understand, especially when I'm talking to other working moms, we're like, what? Alison was like, I wanna, in my free time, I find this not the.
[01:17:16] Speaker B: Last time I wasn't working or doing parent stuff.
Yeah, that's a great question.
I really like, I really like to my, my high school friend I told you about, she and I have a standing once a month date. Pre calendared or it's never going to happen. And over half of the time I just go, she doesn't have kids. And I just go to her very clean, quiet apartment. And then we order in lunch and we paint and we just hang out. Yeah. And we're not like great painters. It's not the point.
[01:17:51] Speaker A: Is there like a specific. Like, is it like acrylics? Is it oils? Is it watercolor?
[01:17:55] Speaker B: Mine is always acrylics. Hers is experimentally. Lots of different things. And I usually, I have A collection on Facebook of quotes that I like. And so I'll get to her house. I usually have had no time to plan it in advance. I literally have this big purple tote bag with all of the supplies that just lives in my front door closet. And I just grab it and go to her house and then I'll get on and I'll find a quote that I like and then I'll think of what kind of image would go with it and then I will paint it. So some of them have been very poignant, like important to my life quotes. But there's also one hanging above my washer that says, the days are long, the years are short, but the laundry lasts forever. And it's funny because I put these paintings up around my house with these little sayings and I know that they're becoming embedded into my children's forever consciousness because you just passively read it 8,000 times. So my daughter now says that the days are, the days are long, the years are short, and the laundry lasts forever. She doesn't know what that means. She's had kids. But like it's, it's there now. But yeah, so I love to just get, get food and just. And painting is the kind of thing where you can still be visiting, you know, because it's part of your brain.
[01:19:03] Speaker A: Right.
[01:19:03] Speaker B: You know, and we're just talking, talking, talking. I have several paintings around my house now from this, from this tradition. I love it.
[01:19:11] Speaker A: It's so fun.
[01:19:12] Speaker B: It's really fun.
[01:19:13] Speaker A: Yeah. My daughter loves anything art. She's just like such a little artist and she got really into like watercolors for a while and obviously she's just.
[01:19:21] Speaker B: Like, wait, didn't you say she's four?
[01:19:23] Speaker A: Yes. Listen.
[01:19:24] Speaker B: Wow, that's impressive because I've never done watercolors.
[01:19:28] Speaker A: My child is four, going on 16.
And so, I mean, when I say watercolor, she's literally just like, you know, but still.
[01:19:36] Speaker B: But still.
[01:19:37] Speaker A: And so I was like, you know what? I'm so. Anytime she'd be like, mommy, paint with me, I was like, I'm gonna figure this out. So my brain is very much like any I, I jokingly talked about, like starting a series called like the random stuff I learned today. Because I'm just gonna, I teach myself everything. I'm completely self taught.
[01:19:54] Speaker B: Well, now we're gonna YouTube this, you know?
[01:19:56] Speaker A: Yeah. No, literally the amount of random things I have in my brain that I'm like a little bit of an expert on because I like, I fixed my, you know, garbage disposal. I Can kind of paint watercolor, you know, all that kind of stuff.
[01:20:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:20:09] Speaker A: So I started just, like, looking at pictures of, like, watercolor flowers. And so I just sit there and I just kind of do little. They came out pretty cool. I was like, wow, I didn't know I could do that.
[01:20:18] Speaker B: This friend I'm telling you about, she came over a couple months ago to specifically host a painting party for the children. Because that's a whole different.
[01:20:26] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:20:27] Speaker B: You know, you had to cover everything. It's a whole thing. And they were so excited, and they basically did, like you said, just blurbs of color. But I had them do it on real canvases, and I put it up in our hallway. Oh, yeah.
[01:20:41] Speaker A: We have, like, paintings that she's done, and it can be really, really beautiful.
[01:20:46] Speaker B: And it makes the house more their house too, you know?
[01:20:49] Speaker A: I love that. Yeah. I think anything with your hands, especially with the work that we do.
[01:20:54] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm like, literally at a screen all.
[01:20:56] Speaker A: The time, and we're thinking about. I tell people I'm like, a lot of times I'm in such a dark head space because the cases we get are just absolutely horrific.
And I was going to ask you.
[01:21:07] Speaker B: About that, actually, because you've told me offline of this. Some of the stuff you've dealt with, that's really hard. What do you do to kind of keep it emotionally even healed, you know?
[01:21:21] Speaker A: Well, the good news is that just naturally, I have very good, like, emotional boundaries. I've done my own work. I can. I can disconnect where I can. I go into my law. I'm a very logical, you know, linear thinker. So I just go, like, I detach the experience. The.
[01:21:43] Speaker B: The human, like me getting upset will not make it easier for me to fix this.
[01:21:46] Speaker A: No, no. And so I really do have to work to be like, I just need to read the facts. And then I just do this thing. But every once in a while, will get a case that throws me, and I have to like, it happened. I think it was about this time last year, actually, because I remember I was sitting on my bed and I was working on our Christmas cards, and we got a call from a physician specifically, and it was probably. Still to this day, it's probably one of the worst cases I've ever heard. And my sister is a nurse, and so I called her later and I was like, hey, how do you guys deal with, like. Cause I mean, the trauma. Right.
[01:22:24] Speaker B: Any medical person.
[01:22:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And I told my husband. I was like, I don't get shaken easily. And some Part of it, too, is I've just kind of become a little desensitized.
But, you know, in those moments, I kind of just have to. And it typically is more.
It's more of the, like, grotesque cases because we have to read a lot of details, and they can be very violent and very.
[01:22:47] Speaker B: If you're reading the script of a horary.
[01:22:49] Speaker A: Yes. And so in those moments, I just have to take space for myself. Like that day, I was like, I'm just gonna go run some errands, gonna be in my own brain for a little bit. I went to. I did the dopamine thing of like, I went to Marshalls, and I bought, like, three different eye creams I didn't need, you know, because I'm just like.
[01:23:07] Speaker B: That's your processing.
[01:23:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm just. I'm just processing. So I. You know, it doesn't happen often, but every once in a while I have to take a break or just kind of go, like, I need a minute, you know, from this. Because I. And. And so in my life, the way I. I handle this also, too regularly is like, we're dealing with such a heavy subject, like, period. Is that, like, I just don't talk about abortion when I'm not at work, you know, Like, a lot of my friends don't know what I do really, like. And. And again, I don't run. I live in the inner city. I don't run in pro life circles, you know, like, most of my friends are pro choice. And so, like, my hairdresser, it took me years of seeing her before I realized she knew. She understood what I did because I found out she was actually a pro life Catholic that used to do, like, 40 days for life. And I was like, what? You know, like, I'm not gonna tell my hairdresser. I'm not gonna tell.
[01:24:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:24:02] Speaker A: You know. Cause I'm like, I can't deal with a conflict constantly.
[01:24:06] Speaker B: Sure.
[01:24:07] Speaker A: So that's why.
[01:24:07] Speaker B: That's why I never post anything about it on my personal Facebook.
[01:24:10] Speaker A: No. And so I have to. I have to create really clear separations. And so for me, like, when I'm off the clock, it's like, I. You know, like, for you, for painting, it's like, I read just fun fiction books. Like, I want to just be, like, just happy. Go lucky. I only watch, you know, British Bake Off. I'm like, I don't want any.
[01:24:32] Speaker B: My TikTok is all like, dancing babies and, you know. Yeah.
[01:24:35] Speaker A: It's all just, like, easy turning my brain off. Let's just enjoy, you know, that stuff. And I think for pro life leaders especially, that distinction is so important if we're going to be in this for the long haul.
Because when you're in this like dark head space all the time, like, it just, it starts to affect you whether you want to it or not.
So this is why I love to ask this question, because it takes you out of that, like.
Right. You know.
Yeah, Yeah, I love that.
[01:25:11] Speaker B: That's really cool.
[01:25:11] Speaker A: I read, I garden, you know, I have an absurd amount of plants, you know. Yeah. Things like that. So. Well, this was so fun. Is there anything you want to add before we jump off?
Anything we missed?
[01:25:28] Speaker B: Well, just if anyone listening want to follow us more closely. The website is secularforlife.org and in particular we have a pretty great email newsletter. We send it out on Fridays. It tends to mostly just be content you can use. And if you want to get on that, which I strongly recommend, if you want to keep track of, like our content and projects, you go to secularprolife.org and it's under contact. You can sign up for it.
[01:25:50] Speaker A: That's great. And then on socials, where can we find you?
[01:25:54] Speaker B: Usually it's just one word, Secular pro life. Tragically, some of them have dashes and things. But if you go on the platform and look up the words secular pro life, if we're there, you'll find us.
[01:26:04] Speaker A: Yeah. So Instagram, I'm assuming.
[01:26:06] Speaker B: Oh, it's Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Substack, YouTube, TikTok. Yeah, all the big ones. We're not on Blue sky, although people keep asking us about it.
[01:26:19] Speaker A: I just thought about that today. I'm like, hearing about this Blue sky thing, I'm like, I guess I should.
[01:26:23] Speaker B: Well, to be blunt, we can't get on another platform unless we automate it. I literally, I literally don't have the capacity. But. But, you know, we'll see.
[01:26:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:26:31] Speaker B: Oh, even Reddit. We're on Reddit, but that one is called Anti Abortion Atheist. I have this amazing volunteer who every single day picks whatever she wants from our content and posts something on Reddit for like three years now. Yeah, good job that. Yeah, she's amazing.
[01:26:49] Speaker A: Well, this was super fun. I just, I just want to talk to you more. More offline, you know, you and I, I just find your journey fascinating. I love how you approach things.
Well, thank you so much for listening today. Today's episode. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast. If you found this conversation valuable, or any of them valuable, please share the them with your friends.
Also consider supporting the important work of the center for Client Safety and to find out more you can Visit center for clientsafety.org Follow us on Socials center for Client Safety and you can find me on Socials at Missy Martina Stone Thanks. Have a great day.