Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: This is Missy Martinez Stone, and you're listening to the Centered Podcast, where we have unifying conversations on the divisive subject of abortion.
Hi, and welcome to the Centered Podcast. I'm your host, Missy Martina Stone, and I'm so excited about today's episode. We have an incredible guest joining us, Toni McFadden. I want to tell you just a few things about this amazing woman. She is an international speaker on the topic of abortion and healthy relationships. She's the founder of the program Relationships Matter, which seeks to educate young people about sex while equipping them to build and maintain healthy relationships. Toni personally knows and understands the power of overcoming her own past and uses that experience to guide people on a journey of confronting their experiences, embracing forgiveness for themselves and for others, and then really transforming their narrative into one of redemption instead of shame. Tony holds a master's degree in professional counseling and is currently pursuing her licensure. She's been married to her wonderful husband for 15 years, and they have been blessed with four beautiful children. Toni, welcome to the Centered Podcast.
[00:01:44] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. I felt so honored.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Oh, you're so kind. Yeah, you were. You were somebody that's been on my short list for a while. It just took. Took a while for me to get organized, to reach out. But I was like. From the beginning, I was like, we need to talk to Tony.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: I know. I felt so honored when I got the email. It's like, yes, of course. I love it podcast.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: I. So I said, I have been in our notes like that. I don't know if you remember this, but you confirmed that you do, that we met in a Starbucks line at a pro life summit. I think it was in 2020. And that was when, you know, we were just. I mean, we had just incorporated. Yeah. In January of January 2nd of that year. And I think that was really when you were getting started, too. Right.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: That was one of the first ones I spoke at with Students for Life.
[00:02:37] Speaker A: That's right. Because I think I was speaking, too.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: You were?
Yeah. So we didn't get to hear each other speak because they had the breakout sessions.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: That's right. Okay, now I'm remembering. It's been such a blur since. Since then, so I.
I couldn't remember. But you're right. That's. Yeah, we. We were both speaking, and I think it was, like, one morning where we were, like, desperate for coffee, and we're standing next to each other. I don't even know how the conversation started.
[00:03:05] Speaker B: Me either.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: We were like, you look like a tired Pro life speaker. I'm a tired pro life speaker. Let's do this together.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Probably had a tag or something, you know.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Probably. Yeah.
So I don't know your whole story, but, like, take. I know a lot of it involves your own abortion experience, but I don't know the full story, so I know it's a lot. Asked to, like, condense it.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: Condense it. Yeah.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: Right. But can you just walk us through it up until you, you know, decided to be a public figure on it?
[00:03:35] Speaker B: Yeah. So I was a senior in high school when I got pregnant. It was about four months before I was going to graduate, and I had been dating a guy off and on for like, two years, and he had gone off to college. And so we me stupidly thought, if we have sex, then he'll stay with me. Now, saying that now sounds ridiculous, but in my teenage mind, that's what I thought. And we ended up getting pregnant. And when I told my best friend, she said, you can't keep this baby. And when I told my boyfriend, he basically said, you don't want to keep it, do you? Insinuating that he did not want me to keep this baby. And so those were the only two people, two voices that I heard.
And I wish I would have heard other voices telling me the truth, which is why I encourage those who are in the pro life movement to not be silent, because I'm envious of women who were able to get out of that situation because someone was bold enough to speak the truth to them, even in a difficult circumstance. So, long story short, I do end up having an abortion.
My boyfriend and my best friend came with me, and I was given the RU486 pills, which was in 1999, so they were not FDA approved yet, which shouldn't surprise anyone because, you know, that's a whole other subject. But I was given these pills, was basically told that I would just have heavy bleeding, like a heavy period.
And they gave me the first set in the abortion clinic. And then one thing I'd like to mention is that how deceptive Planned Parenthood, the abortion industry is that their goal is not to care about the woman. The goal is for financial gain. And I remember when I got an ultrasound, the screen was faced against the wall, so I couldn't see it. Very opposite. If you were going to go to a pregnancy resource center, the only reason that they give you an ultrasound is to see how far along you are. So you know how much you have to pay for the abortion.
I asked the nurse at the time if I could see the screen, and she was visibly agitated with me that I had the audacity to even ask that question.
But as she turned the screen around, eventually, after asking her multiple times, she said, see, it's nothing. It's just the size of a pea. I didn't know anything about fetal development. They take advantage of those who are uneducated, you know, because I really did not know fetal development at all. I was trusting the, you know, I was saying, quote, doctors, because I'm looking to them. And I was seven weeks along. So, you know. You know, seven weeks.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: You're a senior in high school, right? So you're what, like, 17?
[00:06:28] Speaker B: Yeah. 18. I was. I was 18. Mm. I had just turned about. I was about to turn 18. No, I was 18 at the time. Yeah. So they took advantage of the fact that I wasn't educated, and they used their language, a certain language, on purpose so that you don't change your mind. And so for a moment, I did have relief. Like, even though I knew, like, this is a baby, I just thought, like, okay. And of course, the line, everyone does this. It's okay. This is normal. Anyway, they give me these pills, and then they gave me another set of pills to take home, to take by myself. And they said, this will expel the pregnancy. That's the language they use. So they're giving these poisonous pills to a teenage girl to take by herself.
And, you know, I thought it was so deceptive, but I thought it was sweet almost that my husband, I mean, that my boyfriend at the time would bring me there and be with me, but he ended up breaking up with me the next day. Just stopped talking to me. Like, anytime I would call, I was calling him to remind him, like, hey. Because they told me to take the pills 24 to 48 hours later. So I was, like, calling him to let him know. Like, no answer. No, not calling me back.
So not only am I dealing with the grief of. I think I just lost the person that I felt like I was in love with, I'm also keeping this from my parents. I'm walking around school like, this is normal, and I end up taking the pills at my best friend's house. The pills didn't work. I called the clinic. They just said, this is normal. This is why we gave you two sets of them. Just take the second set and you'll be fine. And just hang hung up on me.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: I know if you're listening, you can't see my face, but I just, I, I, My eyes are big. No, that's not how this works. No, that's not how that works. Okay.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: That's not how.
[00:08:32] Speaker A: That's not how it works.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: And so I took the second set and I spotted a little bit. And this is how uneducated I was. I thought, okay. The nurse told me it was just the size of a peak. Maybe that's all the bleeding I'm going to have. It was about a month later, I'm in school and I started getting the most excruciating pains I've ever felt in my life. Felt like lightning bolts from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet so bad that I couldn't even walk to the nurse's office by myself. But when I get to the nurse's office, there's all this pressure. And what I didn't realize then, but now I know now, is that I was hemorrhaging. I had blood clots the size of my fist leaving my body. And I'm sitting there in shock because this is basically what was supposed to happen. Happen a month ago, but didn't.
And.
[00:09:27] Speaker A: And that it grew.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I think it's important for. Especially with the RU 486, the abortion pill being pushed in our culture and all the restrictions and the regulations being taken away.
I was in harm's way when there were regulations to an extent. I can't imagine these college kids being able to get these online. You don't know what you're taking or anyone could get these online.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: And so my mom picked me up and I lied to her and just told her I had bad cramps.
And I just remember going from the bathroom to my bed for hours. I can't even tell you how many days it was. Just. I just. The last thing I remember is laying in fetal position and just hoping this was going to end soon, because it did. It felt like I was going to die, too. Like, it was just horrific. And like a lot of women who've had an abortion, I stuffed it down for many years and tried to pretend that that didn't happen, that I was going to take this to my grave, you know?
But my favorite two words are but God.
[00:10:48] Speaker A: So I had a similar experience. I had a miscarriage.
2017, 28. It's been a while now. Yeah, but I know exactly. I. When you're describing it, I. I know exactly what you're talking about because I was about eight weeks along and, you know, hadn't had my first appointment yet, and it was Christmas Day and it was like. It felt like My uterus just contracted and then never let go. It just, it just contracted. And then I was just in pain and pain and pain. And it was, you know, started bleeding and stuff. And then I go to the emergency room and I, and listen, I have a high pain threshold. I have a very high pain threshold. It takes a lot for me to like, say I'm hurting.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: And I was curled up screaming, like, and my poor father in law was like, running out the door, like some, like, get her medicine. Like, somebody get her medicine. And when the emergency physician came in, she was this beautiful woman. She was so kind. And she said, and I, at that point, had, I passed everything, sorry, scrap it in four hours from like start to finish, which is so fast. But she said, you basically pushed a tennis ball through a pencil hole because my cervix, like, wasn't dilating. And it was still to this day, you know, maybe besides laboring with my daughter, I, I, the pain was excruciating. And you're right. So, like, we think about these medications just having no oversight and they're being given to young girls in these huge packs and like, and they're not being properly educated ahead of time of like, they're just saying, yeah, it's just gonna be like a heavy period. And then these girls are ending up in the emergency departments, you know, scared, bleeding, in excruciating pain. And a lot of them don't want people to know what they're doing. So then it's like they're by themselves. I mean, it is just horrific on so many different levels. And so I know that you can really, like, a lot of women can probably identify.
Yeah. With your experience.
And it's just horrific. So, so how, I mean, now you've been married for 15 years, you have four kids, you've been on this journey.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:19] Speaker A: You know, where, where did that start?
[00:13:23] Speaker B: Well, it started in college. I went to Westchester University. That's when the Lord rescued me. And you know, when the Lord rescues you in the veil is cut from your eyes, and you can actually see what life is truly supposed to be about. He puts a calling on your life, and you're able to see that calling. And that changed the trajectory of my whole life. When I came to know the Lord in college, I started taking communications classes and it was all out of faith. I had no idea. I was a vocal performance major, so. Really?
Yeah.
[00:13:59] Speaker A: Oh, that's. You know what's so funny. Yeah, I, I literally had a moment. And before, the year before, I took a year off to study music.
[00:14:09] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:14:09] Speaker A: And I, I had a moment where I went, am I gonna pursue music? And I had been told from like very.
In the Christian music world, like, you got it. You know, And I was like, am I gonna, am I gonna fight abortion or am I gonna sing? And I went, I think I'm gonna fight abortion. So I, I just think never met anybody else.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: They can come together somehow.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: They can. That's true.
[00:14:37] Speaker B: Amazing. Yeah. See, we have so much in common. But yeah, I, The Lord was like, communications, and I'm like, communications. Okay. So I feel like the Lord gives you little glimpses of what he's going to call you to do, even if you don't know how it's all going to be put together. So I remember being in my college classes talking about saving sex for marriage, but I didn't talk about abortion. That was the one thing I was not ready. I was still, even after being a believer, I was like, no, I'm not going to talk about that because I don't think Christians are going to forgive me for that. So that was the one thing I just, I know. So sad to think that was my reality of thinking. You know, I passed people who had given out pamphlets before with aborted babies and I just, I didn't feel like I would be safe to share.
[00:15:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: Understandably, God had to work that out. God had to work that out in me. And he did. But long story short, he put me in different places to reveal where he wanted me to be. And I started actually working for a pregnancy resource center. And I would speak on saving sex for marriage in the classrooms in public schools. But I wasn't allowed to talk about God. But they were getting biblical principles.
[00:16:05] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: You know, so that's when I started my healing of my abortion. Because I went through post abortion counseling there.
I went through the healing process. I went through Forgiven and Set Free, which is a 12 week Bible study. And I was, I started speaking about it in the classroom. And through that, the Lord did even more than I could imagine because that was enough for me. You know, I was telling these kids, like, I'm in this too. I'm not married. I'm living this out too.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: I'm.
[00:16:39] Speaker B: I'm messed up before, but now I want to love my husband. Now by the choices I'm making for myself, I want to love my husband. Not only my husband, I want to love my children. If God gives me children down the road, I want to deal with as much of my baggage as possible now so that I Don't drag that into my marriage.
[00:16:59] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:17:00] Speaker B: And so I was giving them a picture.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: Preach. Yes, preach.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: I've given them a picture of, hey, if you haven't had sex, it's worth it to wait. If you have, doesn't mean that your worth as a person has changed. You have a chance to start over and rebuild what I would call a foundation. And obviously I'm getting that from Matthew 7, but they don't know that. Build your house on truth, not the sand, you know? And so long. Behold.
About almost nine, ten years later, the same guy I had the abortion with actually came back to apologize to me.
And yeah, he, he called me, he found me on social media, and not only did he apologize, but he said he wanted to do it in person, that he was willing to drive to where I was, sit across from me, and tell me why he left. And this, like, we never ran into each other.
[00:17:59] Speaker A: Like, literally brings tears to my eyes.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Never talked. I mean, talk about the difference between what a real man is in this culture based on someone who was willing to not only just say it to me through, like, a text, but say, I want to specifically meet with you. And so I remember sitting across from him.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: Responsibility.
[00:18:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not blame it on different things. He said I was a coward.
He said it was easier to run. And the last thing he said was, it was, I didn't want to have to face the fact that we ended the life of our own child. You don't hear a lot of, he's.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: Been on his own journey. No, but he's done the work. He's doing the work. And that is evident in his ability to come back and sit in front of you and take responsibility. Like, that man's been in therapy, let me tell you. Yeah, somebody's doing the work.
[00:18:51] Speaker B: Right. And so I was just like, it took. I had gone through post abortion counseling and I'd forgiven him, but it took the forgiveness to a whole other level because I honestly never thought I would even see him again. And so then, less than a year later, I married him.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: I did not see that coming.
Amazing.
Oh, that's so good.
[00:19:17] Speaker B: Isn't God so good?
[00:19:18] Speaker A: Wow. So you've been married now for 15 years and four kids.
[00:19:22] Speaker B: And I still tear up, which is like, the goodness of God.
[00:19:26] Speaker A: I love it. Oh, I love it.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: So when did you start speaking? Yeah, like, sorry, I didn't want to jump in to your question if that wasn't the right question you were going to ask me.
[00:19:38] Speaker A: I, I1 it's a, that's a beautiful story. It's a beautiful story. And it, I think it. Because when I was looking at your stuff, I was seeing that. That redemptive narrative. Right. And I would imagine that, you know, even when you're. You're. You're speaking to students and you're in high schools, like, you can literally say, like, I was a high school student, like, I went through all these things. And yes, it was hard. It was hard. But because that's the balance. Right. You don't invalidate that this experience was so hard and difficult, but it can be redemptive. And so I, this makes me want to focus more on. Because since I know that you're becoming a therapist, that's where I'm just like, oh, it's the.
I can imagine that, you know, you're.
You're working with vulnerable populations on two fronts. Right. It's people who are young and then people who may have had abortion experiences. And so how do you navigate these difficult conversations with Sim? And I talk a lot about accessibility, like making these conversations accessible to them. And you can pull in all your therapist language, you know, I want to hear it. How do you do it? And then even broader, how can we do it?
[00:21:04] Speaker B: Right, right, right. Well, when I'm speaking to kids, I know developmentally, their mind can't really grasp future all the time. They can't. You have to paint that. You have. They have to understand the why behind why should I do this? You have to make it so clear to them because, you know, their prefrontal lobe is not fully developed. This is why they need parents. This is why they need adults, healthy adults to guide them, because their brain isn't capable of seeing 15, 20 years down the road. So you have to make it where they're at.
[00:21:44] Speaker A: Yeah, the risk calculator. Yeah, the risk calculator is literally not fully functional. And so you have to say that is risky. That is, you know. Yeah.
[00:21:55] Speaker B: And you got to make it. They love authenticity.
Kids know.
[00:22:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: When you're being authentic and when you're not.
[00:22:04] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: They pick that.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: I think this next generation specifically, too. I've said this a few times. I'm like, say what you want to about Gen Z or Gen Alpha. There is an authenticity to them that I think is unmatched.
They are okay with disagreeing if they feel like you are authentic, like, it's more important to younger people that you're just being real. And I have seen that. And I'm like, you know, every generation has their struggles, but I find that really beautiful is that there is this value of authenticity, but it also makes them really, really good. Bull crap callers, right? Exactly. They can see right through you, right through you if they think you're trying to pull one over on them.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: And I think the storytelling, just like you said with your husband, captures them so much more than just the statistics. And if you can pull them in with that and meet them exactly where they're at, don't. It's not disingenuous. Like what they're going through is what they're going through and validating those things, but also viewing them as up here. I'm not going to put you down here and say, oh, well, you're teenagers, you're probably going to go out and have sex anyway. So this is all like, no, I'm going to raise the value for you because you are valuable, that you're worth more. And here is why. I don't care what you've been through. Maybe you don't have the greatest home life. Try to think of every kind of scenario they could possibly be in because they need to be seen. I don't want to when I'm talking to. I don't want anyone to feel left out. And that's where the Holy Spirit comes in to help me with. Because I'm praying over every audience I'm speaking to because I don't know their hearts like God does. And he's going to help me say things maybe I've never even said before or like to pierce exactly where they are. And so. But with older people, it's almost going back to that childlike faith because they've been through so many different experiences that their hearts can be hardened and their brains can be so molded into all these different experiences that they don't think that the healing is possible. I don't. I cannot tell you how many women who said, I don't think, how can God forgive me for this? And it's been 20, 30 years.
And I'm like, it goes back to identity and not looking at yourself, but looking more at Christ.
The more you look at him, that's where more of the freedom comes. Not by looking at you. Because the scripture says we have no good in us apart from who, Him. So if you're looking more at yourself than you're looking more than him, of course you're going to still feel guilty and not really understanding the power of his blood. And I think one of your questions you might have had for me is, what is my most difficult thing?
[00:25:06] Speaker A: Yeah, the biggest Challenges, Yeah.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: In this, in the beginning, it was the identity part, because I'm going back to my past and speaking about a woman who I once was, not who I am currently, and having to. If I'm not hidden in Christ when I'm speaking, those little things can creep up. Like, you should not even be speaking. You're the one who had the abortion. Like, you did this, you know, and not remembering, like, no, I'm redeemed. Now it is cast to the depths of the sea and God chooses to remember it no more. And now I'm setting other people free. Like, this is not even about me, first of all. Like, our testimonies are not about us. It's about other people. And so that was the challenge in the beginning. Not making it about me and not thinking that's who I am, but standing in the righteousness of God and that he's the one that gives me my worth. Not people who are listening either. Like, they. They don't get to validate me. I can't get validation from people. I have to only get validation from the word of God. So, yeah.
[00:26:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I think too, there's something to be said about.
Because our. Our own minds want to go. You shouldn't be like, the whole imposter syndrome. Like, you shouldn't be up here white. But I'm going, no, it's these, these are the exact people should. That should be up here. Because you have. You have this lived experience that can relate to people in ways that other people can't. And it's like, that's what I talk about, that accessibility. Like, you have a capability to be accessible to young women, especially women who've had abortion experiences, women in minority communities that other people don't. And so it's like taking these experiences and turning them into tools. Right? Like, yeah, like, I, as. I have experienced my own challenges with, you know, with. With miscarriage. And I've been. I've been very open about my. My experiences of spiritual abuse and things like that. Yes, it's been hard, but it's also made me very empathetic.
It's made me a great listener. You know, it's made me. Yes, it's. It's sharpened other things in me that. But you have to be open to that because the other, you know, like you said, the other way you go is you get bitter and angry, but if you do the work. If you do the work, yes, they, they make you a kind, like, kinder and more empathetic and, and more just able to relate to people in their pain and in their grief. And I think that's some of the most beautiful things that can come from our most tragic experiences. Now, had you said that to me in the middle of my miscarriage, I would have said, you know, get out. I don't want to hear that. Like there's, you know, you don't say that to somebody. Yeah, you don't say that to somebody in the middle of their grief. However, down the road, as you get space as we heal, this is where you can just change the narratives you take. You're taking those experiences and making them tools instead of chains. You know what I mean? Like, this is something that I now have in my tool belt. Right.
And it's just going to help me help more people. Right. So on this journey, at what point do you decide to become a licensed professional counselor?
[00:28:51] Speaker B: Well, when I was working at the pregnancy resource center as a relationship educator, I sometimes would be in the office and we'd have a girl come in who was going to take a pregnancy test and they would say, do you want to take this off? Because if they had too many or whatever. And I would go through the process with her, kind of just do the first part and then the counselor would take over. But as they were watching me, they were like, you really have a gift of, you know, empathy. Because I could never go in to the session with her and her bring up, I have to have an abortion and judge her because I've been there.
[00:29:32] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:29:33] Speaker B: And so there's just that natural. I don't have to like, fake it. Like, I know I've been there.
And I'm going to tell you what I wish someone would have told me. You know, it was like that kind of exchange and very natural, not pushy, not. And just loving her exactly where she was, Allowing her to be scared, allowing her to have her fears, focusing on her and the baby, not just solely the baby, because they can feel that too. And so then years later, okay, I get married, have children. I laid down speaking because the Lord, you know, called me to be a stay at home mom. But he said, keep the speaking close to your heart. I'll bring it back. Then my husband was the one that was like, I think you should probably pursue counseling. You know, I think just for like the future. You never know, like once the kids are grown and everything and just having that. And so I did online classes, like really slowly, you know, and just did some baby steps with it. And all of a sudden here I am getting my license because I thought I was going to stop at my master's. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And then you're dealing with your own stuff, too. That comes up and then learning separate that.
So just. I do the counseling for women who choose life and some of them have had abortion in their past. And then I also do some work with a ministry called Abiding Love, which is an adoptions agency. And do you know of them? Okay, so I do grief counseling with the moms who place their babies for adoption. So, yeah, so I, again, it's because I want to be for them what I didn't have and to just love on them where they're at and help them reshape, reframe their story and see that this is not. They don't have to live in this forever. Like, we're going to look at the suffering, we're going to look at the pain. We're going to face the healing. Like, you. Even when, like, they cry, like, that's healing your brain. This is a good thing to cry. You don't have to stop your tears.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Don't stop it. Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:52] Speaker B: That's cleansing for your soul and it's healing for your brain. And, you know, and there's an array of issues that can come up and, you know, I want to be a safe place for women to be able to share things that they wouldn't share maybe with someone else. So.
[00:32:09] Speaker A: Well, I think if I, I want to connect you with my friend. I don't know. Do you know Aaron Fowler? He's down in Texas. He helps with one of the pregnancy centers down there. You guys need to connect.
[00:32:20] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:32:21] Speaker A: Because he's taken a lot of, like, therapy practices and incorporated it into how they reach women. And a lot of it is, like, he's telling me, and I'm like, you're basically, like, doing like, therapy. But he says, like, he's, he's really changing the PRC model of, of letting them lead the conversation, but also getting to the heart of the issue of like. And, and this is what I've been like, screaming from the mountaintops the past two years. Like, it's not the, the abortion is the, the being abortion minded is a symptom of a deeper problem. And if you want to address the symptom, you have to get to the deeper issue. And so he deals more with, like, in those, in those counseling conversations, it's, are you scared? Are you shamed? Are you, you know, whatever. The. What is the deeper thing? Are you safe? Are you like, what is the trauma that is informing this decision? And he said when they incorporated that model that their success rate just went through the roof because it became so focused about being seen and heard, you know, because, you know, my therapy, listen, I have been in therapy for seven years. I am doing the work. I've come a long way. My best friend and my sister in law is a licensed professional therapist and she focuses on prenatal perinatal, like grief loss, like, you name it, like, that's her area of expertise. And she's become this like just incredible voice up in the Detroit area of Detroit too, and that whole mom and baby world. And.
But I, I keep saying, like, not only are we not gonna, are we not going to change people's mind on abortion, we're also not going to reach people on abortion if we're not actually dealing with the heart of the issue here. And a lot of it is because they are scared, they are unsettled, they are like, there, there's something else that's going on here and that just gets lost in, in our own motivations in just, just this is just what we've always done, you know, and, and really stepping back to say, how do we meet the deeper need? Because we meet the deeper need than the symptoms.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:34:48] Speaker A: Work themselves out. Right, right. Like, and so I don't know when we're not all, we're not all professional therapists, but are there like, you know, my, my big thing that I tell people, I'm like, like, that I like to say is like in the moment of grief, like, please don't. This is not the time to like focus on God's sovereignty. I know Christians hate Romans 8.
[00:35:08] Speaker B: Don't say Romans 8 to me.
[00:35:10] Speaker A: No, Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Like, and people don't want to hear that, but I go, no, it's just not, it's not the thing. Like when you're in the middle of losing your child, focusing on God's sovereignty is not helpful. Maybe late, like, maybe later, maybe later, maybe later, not now. Right? And so yeah, I mean, just, just from, from your, like as you're, as you are working through this program and getting, you know, doing your clinical hours, like, what are the things that, that stick out the most of, like, we all need to be doing this or saying this or changing our language if we want to actually help and reach people.
[00:35:56] Speaker B: This may sound like I'm not answering the question, but I promise I am.
I talked to a woman who worked at a prc, was a counselor and she said to me, I feel like I'm not doing what I can because I've never been through an abortion. And I think partly, too, with the church as a whole, we almost have that. Like, we don't want to talk about it, or like, I can't relate, or so I'd rather. Or on her part, I think it was a lie that she was believing because I said, are you a sinner? Yeah, well, you can relate to her. Maybe you don't have the same sin, but if you. Jesus never sinned, but he could enter into people's pain, get to the heart, root issues. Because he could meet people exactly where they were. And he didn't. He didn't. Even though he was the Son of God and he was perfect, how could he be so perfect? To relate to every single kind of person. And I said, if you have this mentality of I just can't relate to them because, you know, I haven't gone through that, then there's a lot of people I probably shouldn't be talking to too. I'm not just talking to the woman who has had an abortion. Some of my clients have never had an abortion. They chose life. And I bring out the beauty of that because that wasn't an easy decision either.
[00:37:28] Speaker A: Yeah, there's probably still a lot of trauma around that decision. And I think there's a misunderstanding, especially. Especially around adoption, where it's like, well, if you don't have the abortion, but you place your child for adoption or you parent, then it's not hard. Like, oh, and it's like this beautiful. It is beautiful.
It is still very hard and can still be very traumatic.
[00:37:52] Speaker B: And there's still. Yeah, there's still trauma in that because I. Like I said, I. I didn't realize, actually, until I was counseling women who've placed their babies for adoption, how much of the grieving process they go through, the guilt that they go through. It's not the same kind of guilt as someone who has ended the life of their own child, but it's this similar. But it's pretty close because it feels like a death. But they're still alive.
[00:38:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:22] Speaker B: And it's just the most. I tell them. I often tell them, I can't imagine how difficult that must have been to carry this child for nine months, give birth, and then place your baby into the arms of someone else. And it's not because you don't love them. It's because you love them so much. That is the most selfless act. But painful at the same time.
[00:38:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:51] Speaker B: And it's just.
I think that what I'm learning the most is. And this is not to toot my own horn at all, but I've had the most return rate. Like, I. It's hard for my clients to leave.
Like, I'm like, okay, you.
I don't want you to have to.
[00:39:13] Speaker A: Because you're such a safe place.
[00:39:15] Speaker B: Yeah. So, you know, some of them, I'm like, I have to show them that, like, look how much you've progress. I think we could go to every other. I try to, like, win.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:25] Speaker B: Because there's other women waiting too, and.
[00:39:28] Speaker A: Right, right, right.
[00:39:29] Speaker B: Yeah. I think when they have a safe place, the number one thing a woman wants is to feel safe. And when she has that safety and she feels protected, that she doesn't have to have it all together. Like, I tell them, hey, if you're angry today, you. You're safe to be angry here. Because I'm not taking it personally. It's not towards. We're going to get to the root of, you know, and so they know that. And then if I ever. I tell them, if I ever asked you a question, you don't want to answer it.
[00:39:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:00] Speaker B: You're. You're in charge. Because some of them are coming from abuse and they've had their voices taken. And I want to empower them to know you're. You're in control.
You know, I'm here to just help you as long as that's going to be. But I also want to empower you with tools so that you don't need me anymore, you know? And so.
[00:40:26] Speaker A: Right.
[00:40:27] Speaker B: I think that part of it, you know, I pray a lot, like. Right. Because God is a great counselor.
[00:40:34] Speaker A: You have to.
[00:40:35] Speaker B: The Holy Spirit is the great counselor. I just get to be used as a vessel in that, you know? And after this, you know, I'm counseling a girl. Yeah. She's new age. And so I'm. I'm praying, like, lord, give me opportunities to. But she feels safe with me. She knows I'm a believer. She knows I'm a Christian. She doesn't miss a session.
[00:40:57] Speaker A: That's. That's amazing. That's amazing. But it's like, it's all about. Yeah. Creating the space. Creating the space for them to come and they won't. And this is even bigger than, like I said, it's. Yes. People who've had abortion experiences, but people who are just grappling with the idea of abortion. It's like if they don't feel safe to engage in this conversation, they're not going to.
[00:41:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: I've become increasingly frustrated at a lot of the postures of pro life leaders and the pro life movement of being very caustic and. And sarcastic and making these, like, funny videos. And I go, who are you? Who are you reaching? Who's. Whose mind has ever been changed, made fun of?
[00:41:42] Speaker B: You know what? Oh, go ahead.
[00:41:44] Speaker A: No, I want to hear what you got to say about that.
[00:41:46] Speaker B: Well, I partnered with a certain group, too, and. Okay, I'm a praying woman, so I know I'm going in a battlefield. I need. I need the spirit, the covering. But, you know, I didn't take the same approach. I took the same approach I take in the counseling room. I don't know why I want to cry, but I. This big crowd of people, and this girl comes up to me, and she's angry. She. And I said, tell me why you're pro choice. I want to hear what made you pro choice? Just that. Of caring about why I could cry because she just needed to be hurt, and she expected me to come off. It's not about a debate. My goal is not to change your mind in this moment. My goal is to be Jesus to you.
And because I know Jesus would sit with you and say, tell me.
[00:42:44] Speaker A: Yeah, just extend the. Yeah. Extend the invitation. Build the bridge. Yeah. It's funny because I've told the story a number of times of. I worked at Students for Life America for a number of years, and I would go to campuses, and there was always this.
This, like, a lot of our reach recorded stuff. We get protested and all stuff. But when I went, I didn't. And they'd always be like, why do you get protested? And I was like, because they said I was the nicest pro lifer they'd ever met.
And I was having really thoughtful and, like, meaningful conversations with them, and they liked me. Like, it was just like. Because I would just sit there and I'd just be like, well, I feel like, talk to me about this. Or like, yeah, like, just genuinely meeting people where they were, and I wouldn't get protested. And it really just came down to genuinely wanting to ask questions and being genuinely curious, not. Not just setting up, like, they're gonna say this, and then I'm gonna debate. It's like, no, I'm genuinely. I want to know you, and I want to know how you and I always be like, I. You know, I would just use a lot of language I still do of like, this is really complicated and.
[00:44:00] Speaker B: Right.
[00:44:01] Speaker A: I'm still trying to figure this out. And like, had you ever considered this and this? And then just be like, oh, it's interesting, you know, and I think so much of it is just about, like, especially now, I've had this conversation with so many pro life leaders, especially now after Dobbs, people are, you know, more defensive than ever, rightfully so, because I do think that there's been some. There's been some bad stewarding of the pro life message, and it's like we're losing over and over and over again on these ballot measures and things like that. And I think a lot of it has to do with the, Our posture and the way that we're approaching people is not creating safe places for them to have the conversations that they need to have. Because everyone was talking about misinformation. I'm like, well, why are they misinformed? Because they don't feel safe coming to us to get the answers.
[00:44:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's the same thing I felt, I think, in the beginning when I was like, even after being a believer for two and a half, almost three years.
[00:45:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:01] Speaker B: I, I'm not going to tell Christians specifically why, you know, and so I think that's where my, A different approach has come for me, too, is, you know, I, I want to be that safe place, whether you're on the same side as me or not. And I had this similar experience as you as them saying, I've never talked to a pro life person like you before. Yeah, well, yeah.
[00:45:28] Speaker A: When you close off, like, first of all, I'm sorry.
[00:45:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry that, that has been your experience. But, you know, I can understand where you're coming from just by simply asking you a question. And when I see, like, the angry ones, I'm like, they've had an abortion or they know someone that's not just coming out of nowhere when that's not.
[00:45:53] Speaker A: Just coming from nothing.
[00:45:54] Speaker B: Angry. They're hurt.
[00:45:57] Speaker A: They are hurting. They're hurting. Yes.
[00:46:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:01] Speaker A: They're hurting, though.
[00:46:02] Speaker B: But it's still.
[00:46:03] Speaker A: And for a long time.
Yeah, I, you know, I, I had to do a lot of self evaluation about, like, what my. Where's my place in the movement here? Because I realized very quickly, like, I'm not an activist. I'm not an activist. I don't want to be out holding the sign because all I was doing was being the impasse. I'm like, all I see are a lot of really hurting people. And I, I understand the importance of, like, being in the news and getting, you know, our voices out there, but I was like, this is not me. This is not for me.
[00:46:36] Speaker B: Right.
[00:46:37] Speaker A: Because I'm just looking at these people and I'm like, the woo. I could just see. I'm like, they're, they're not, they're not coming to these.
[00:46:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:44] Speaker A: Like, this is, this is trauma coming out sideways.
[00:46:48] Speaker B: Right.
[00:46:48] Speaker A: Right.
[00:46:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:49] Speaker A: And, and they're doing their best because I said as soon as they admit, if they, if they choose to even open that door to consider, then they have to consider our position, then they have to grapple with a devastating decision. And that is a big ask.
[00:47:09] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:47:11] Speaker A: And I just, I am more and more, I'm just like, how do we, how do we create these safe places? And then how do we, how do we invite people and how do we connect with people to get them in? And I, I think your work is amazing. I think you are amazing. I love your, your vision and your position, and I just think you're doing exactly what you need to be doing.
[00:47:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I love to. I haven't spoken to students in a long time. It's been a lot of banquets and a lot of other things. But the reason I like speaking to students is because I don't think the abortion rate is going to go down until they respect marriage and saving sex for marriage. And so that has changed. I don't think the abortion rate is really going to go down. So that's my heart.
[00:48:04] Speaker A: And because we're not dealing, we're not dealing with the root issues. Yeah. And that is, we're not dealing with poverty. We're not dealing with the lack of social services. We're not dealing with.
Yeah. I mean, it's agreed. 100. Agreed.
[00:48:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:17] Speaker A: Wow. Well, I know, I know you've got appointments, so just ask my last question really quickly.
I know. Okay. So you have a husband of 15 years, you have four children, you're doing your clinical hours.
Hours. Like, so I, I, I want to ask, like, what do you do as a hobby? And you're probably going to be like, I sleep. Right. Like, like, what's a hobby? You know, someone asked me that a couple years ago and I was like, what do I do for fun? And I was like, I'm so boring.
I, well, I, I was like, I don't have time. Like, in what, in what spare time Now? I read and guard it. I carve out, you know, time.
[00:48:59] Speaker B: I love to read that.
[00:49:00] Speaker A: If you have free time.
You love to what?
[00:49:04] Speaker B: I said I love to read, too. That's definitely something I love to do. But I love to travel when I can.
[00:49:12] Speaker A: What's the favorite? Yeah, what's your favorite place you've been probably so far.
[00:49:17] Speaker B: Cayman Islands. Oh, nice. It's beautiful. Yeah. I love it.
[00:49:20] Speaker A: That sounds amazing. I would love anything tropical, anything beachy. I'm there. Take me.
[00:49:26] Speaker B: Yes. I'll send. Take a link to the house. It's our friend's house they let us use. And I will fit to the link. It's right on the beach, too.
[00:49:33] Speaker A: I got the same thing in Hawaii. If you ever want to go to Hawaii, best friends live there and they have Airbnb.
[00:49:39] Speaker B: Oh, send it to me. I'll send you mine.
[00:49:43] Speaker A: I got it.
[00:49:43] Speaker B: Send me yours.
[00:49:44] Speaker A: Okay. I have so many things I want to send you after this. I'm going to be like, look at this, look at that. Look at that.
[00:49:50] Speaker B: I could have talked so much longer.
[00:49:52] Speaker A: I know, I know, but I know. I understand that you have clients and stuff, but. Absolutely. I would love to talk again. In the meantime, where can people find out about you, about your work and how can we support you?
[00:50:08] Speaker B: I am on Instagram, the forbidden TikTok. I know, but that's where the kids are and that's where people are Facebook and X, so they call it Twitter. And then my website is just my name, tonymcfadden.com and that's where people can book me for speaking engagements on there. And I think that's it. Yeah.
[00:50:31] Speaker A: Oh, and I have amazing. Well, you're. I saw. I want to read it. I really want to read it.
[00:50:36] Speaker B: Read to.
[00:50:37] Speaker A: What are the chances you have an audiobook?
[00:50:39] Speaker B: I need to get it on audio.
[00:50:41] Speaker A: Audiobook.
[00:50:41] Speaker B: Yet it is not.
[00:50:43] Speaker A: Please. For busy moms like me, please.
[00:50:45] Speaker B: Next year, 2025. Okay, it's going to be on audio. So.
[00:50:50] Speaker A: Yeah, because I saw it on your website and I was like, oh, I want to read that so bad.
[00:50:53] Speaker B: Yeah, but you know, so yeah, again.
[00:50:56] Speaker A: In one spare time.
[00:50:58] Speaker B: It's on Amazon, so.
[00:51:00] Speaker A: Oh, that's amazing. Well, I know you have to go, so I'll let you go, but thank you so much, Tony. You're amazing.
Your voice is so important and maybe we can have a part two next year and we can continue the conversation.
[00:51:12] Speaker B: I would love it. So good to see you again.
[00:51:15] Speaker A: You too. All right, see ya. Yeah.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: Bye.
[00:51:17] Speaker A: Thank you for listening to today's episode. Please don't forget to subscribe, rate and review us so more people can find out about this podcast. If you found this conversation valuable, please share it with your friends. Also, consider supporting the important work of center for Client Safety. You can visit centerforclientsafety.org to find out more about our work and follow us on social media. Enter for client safety. You can find me on social media. Icy Martinez Stone. See you.
