[00:00:07] Speaker A: This is Missy Martinez Stone, and you're listening to the Centered Podcast, where we have unifying conversations on the divisive subject of abortion.
Hi and welcome. Welcome to the Centered Podcast. I am your host, Missy Martinez Stone, and I'm also the president and CEO of an amazing organization called the center for Client Safety. We investigate dangerous abortion providers, we report them to regulatory agencies, and we help stop them from harming women and children. Now, typically on this podcast, we talk with other pro life leaders about how to be unifying and build bridges on the divisive and hostile subject of abortion.
And we're still technically going to do that today, but we're going to do it a little differently. I am joined today by my co leaders here at the center for Client Safety, Christine Smith and Amy Gerke. And we're going to go in depth on a few of the center for Client Safety's core principles that we follow and how all of them contribute to the overall goal of building bridges and creating unity, even in some of the most difficult and emotionally charged situations when women and children are being harmed at these abortion facilities.
But instead of me introducing them, I'll let them introduce themselves. So, Christine, you've been on this before, but just remind the listeners who you are and what you do and how you got involved.
[00:02:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So I am center for Client Safety's chief investigations officer. I handle all of the investigations. I see them through from beginning to end, vet all of the information that comes to us. My background is in insurance auditing and physician credentialing. So my entire professional career has been involved with being careful and assessing risk. All of that, you know, comes in very handy to our investigative process here.
And I got involved specifically with center for Client Safety when I heard Missy speak on a podcast. And so I always love coming on the podcast here. Feels like it's coming full circle. So super excited to get into our conversation today.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: Yeah, Christine was one of our earliest hires, and I had no idea that this entire field existed of credentialing physicians. And I was learning how to do what we do at the center for Client Safety kind of as we go. And she reached out and told me what she did, and I said, what a random niche field and experience to have that is so perfect for what we do here. So I quickly snapped her up, and she's been just an absolutely integral part of this team. Now, Amy joined a little bit later, but is equally as incredible and important, and we would not be where we are without Amy. So, Amy, I realized when I was putting this together. I don't think you've ever actually been on the podcast. No, no, I don't. That's a big miss. I don't know. I don't know how we did that. So some of our listeners might not know you as well. So give them a little background and you know how you end up here and what you do.
[00:03:56] Speaker C: Sure. I have been doing pro life work, I feel like basically forever.
I, prior to joining the center for Client Safety, I've been involved in the pro life movement both professionally and on a volunteer basis pretty much since the late 1980s. So forever. My pro life work basically centered on policy and education. I was kind of at the 10,000 foot level in the pro life movement. I was with Illinois Right to Life. That's where I was when Roe versus Wade was overturned.
About that time, it quickly became apparent that a lot of the old strategies that we'd been using to advance the pro life movement weren't working quite as well as they had in the past, that new strategies were needed. About that same time, one of my team members had been to the March for Life and she told me about this awesome group that at the time was called Reprotection, that was using existing laws to shut down abortion facilities. And I thought, oh my gosh, not only is that incredible, but that's something that can actually be done to stop abortion and pro abortion states like Illinois. We were, you know, as you could imagine in Illinois, hitting our heads against the wall all the time. So very long story short, Missy and I connected. I was blessed enough to get a job offer from this incredible organization, and now I serve as the chief impact officer, which basically means I handle communications, development, and spread the good word about everything that's going on here at the center for Client Safety.
[00:05:33] Speaker A: Yeah, we were looking at the time for a development director, for somebody to help come in and really build those relationships with supporters because we had this amazing program, but we needed to get support to be able to see it through. And so we were looking for somebody and I interviewed I can't even tell you how many people, and Amy was the only one who already knew who we were and fully understood what we did.
On top of just everything else about her, I mean, just on a mission and personality, everything about which I knew she would be a perfect fit, but when I didn't have to fully explain it, I was like, oh, she's. She's got it.
And so she joined the team end of 2023 and has just been absolutely incredible.
She's the relationship one, she's the one that's going out and talking to people about what we do. And it's just been an incredible, incredible addition to our already amazing team.
So we decided today that we wanted to all three of us come together, which I'm starting to think like maybe we should do this more often.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: I was just gonna say it would.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: Be fun because people don't ever really get to see, I don't know, more behind the scenes than the three of us working together because we are very much just a cohesive unit and now just three really co leaders of this organization and we all have really unique things that we do.
And so I would love for our followers to see that more in action. But we had decided to have a discussion because this discussion, because it feels really relevant right now about exposure and enforcement. Now those words by themselves you might not understand. We're going to give you some context. But essentially what is happening is there are a lot of stories, really graphic, really devastating stories that are breaking in media right now, breaking in the news about what is going on at abortion facilities.
And what we do is we help hold these abortion facilities accountable. But there has been a big change in what that looks like over the past few years. A lot of other organizations focus on exposing what is going wrong and that's often what people think that we do.
But we focus on a very different method called enforcement. And so what we're looking at is in the case of something horrific happening at the abortion facility, a woman being harmed, having complications, going to the hospital, what is the best way forward? And there's been these two paths of exposure, media, talking about it, and then enforcement, what we do. Now I wanted Amy to talk a little bit more about this for two reasons. One, she's been in the movement the longest and has watched this play out in real time.
And before you, when we were talking about this, you actually admitted that you held at one point held the view of exposure being the best strategy. And so I would love for you to, to share a little bit more about what distinguishes our method from like what is exposure and what distinguishes us and really put yourself back in that mind frame of when you were supportive of that strategy.
[00:09:24] Speaker C: Sure. Well, when I was first starting out in full time pro life work in 1990, way back in the day, I was with a national organization working out of Washington D.C. and you know, young and enthusiastic me and my co workers of a similar age all thought, oh, this is a horrible story. We've got to get the word out. If we let Everybody know what's going on, things will change, people will take action. And it was kind of disheartening to see that. Yeah, we got people really riled up, but nothing really ever changed. And so as time went on, I saw this happen again and again, and I started to think a couple of things. Yeah, we've exposed the story, but what. What has really changed? What's really happened? Not a lot. We were affecting change through passing laws, that sort of thing. But all that happened when we exposed a woman's story was just that we exposed a woman's story. And this woman who has suffered, you know, terribly, has her tragic experience out there as a public spectacle. So the thing that I love about the center for Client Safety is from the beginning, we have been focused and committed to justice and safety for women, not just media exposure. This means that we are centered on women or young girls who've been harmed, and we are prioritizing real solutions for lasting change, not just headlines. A lot of times these pro life organizations, like I said, are really good at getting horror stories about abortion providers blasted in both social and traditional media. But the only real effect is getting pro lifers upset. Many times the tragic thing is that these negligent, horrible abortion providers keep on practicing, keep on harming women. But like I said, there is another terrible effect to exposing these stories. The women who are victims are exploited, and their stories are public fodder. So here we have a very serious, strong core value of protecting women who are the victims of these abortion providers. Our approach is to report wrongdoing to the appropriate local authorities and other local agencies, to hold them accountable to laws that are already on the books. And a lot of times, these aren't even pro life laws. There's things like zoning laws or HIPAA violations or any number of things that are not even related to abortion. So we target these things. We target the laws that they're breaking, which are many. And just about every abortion provider is breaking some kind of law. And then we provide women with justice while protecting their anonymity by protecting their stories and just keeping them safe.
The best thing about our approach, and this is why I love the center for Client Safety so much, is that our approach actually stops these dangerous abortion providers from performing abortions. And many times our approach closes their facilities altogether. So these kind of successes are just not possible by simply going to the media.
Our strategic approach can get these women justice while protecting their identity, while protecting their story and allowing them to heal in the way that they need.
[00:12:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's a really important thing to note is that position that you had, and I think most people, most reasonable people would agree with, is that the things that we see are so horrific that if we just show them, then everybody would go, oh yes, this is horrific. But there's something that happens on the subject of abortion. There's a term kind of in the industry called abortion distortion of as soon as something.
The only thing I can really compare it to is when people talk about the wedding industry or the event space, it's like as soon as you attach the word wedding, everything becomes more expensive.
[00:13:33] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:13:33] Speaker A: You know, it's kind of like that. Like as soon as you attach the word abortion to anything, people just lose their objectivity. And they. Things that seem really reasonable to us, it does not translate. And I think the, I think. And you know, who would have known that, you know, because I think back in the 80s and the 90s and stuff, especially when this was really ramping up early 2000s, there was an assumption that people, the general public would be reasonable and be just as horrified if we just let them know. I don't think that was a wrong assumption.
I think that that makes sense. But what happens is that when you introduce abortion into tips, the scales, the same rules just do not apply. And I wish there was a psychological study. Can someone please do a psychological study on this? Because I would love it explained.
But I just want to preface. I don't think your initial assumption was necessarily wrong. It's just that this subject has a really strange way of. People respond in very unpredictable ways. Right.
[00:14:56] Speaker C: Yeah. I actually, you know, I have a really quick story about that. That was one of the things I quickly discovered, you know, when I was first in the pro life movement was a lot of times if you tell these horrible things to people who support abortion, they just don't believe you. And the best example of this, I forget what the specific story was, but I was with one of our, one of my co workers and we were actually at NBC News in Washington D.C. and I was talking to one of the anchors, an anchor of NBC Nightly News, and said, this is what's happening. This is the proof that we have for this horrible thing that's going on. And she said to my face, you're lying, despite the fact that I had all of this evidence. And so you're exactly right. Abortion distortion is very, very real.
[00:15:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And so we have to adjust for that. And we cannot assume that just because we tell these stories that people are going to respond in a way that they would respond to any other type of tragedy. But I definitely, like, there have been so many times when I'm talking about our cases and I'm talking to someone that I know might not be fully against abortion or at least questionable, and I have to go out of my way to say I'm not being hyperbolic, I'm not exaggerating. Like, this is like, like I will read this straight from whatever and, and show that what I'm saying is true. And so I think it's too. There's. So you really brought up two points, is one is they don't have rational responses. People just don't have reasonable responses. And two, they're just written off as. As being untrue. And, you know, we could get into why that is the case, but, you know, that's probably a whole other podcast, but it really caused, you know, this group of people back in, you know, 2017, 2018, when we're. When we were having these discussions about starting this organization, how do we adjust for this? There has to be another way. And so up until this point, everybody equated accountability of abortion facilities to exposure. I mean, it was right when all the stuff was going on with David Delighten, center for Medical Progress. I mean, we saw how that ended. I mean, he. He exposed a horrific industry that Planned Parenthood was involved in. And were they ever in trouble? You know, was there. Was there any actual change of this entire industry? Unfortunately, I have not seen. Now, maybe there has been some. Please let me know if you've seen it. But as far as I know, states schools are still very much participating, planned parents still very much participating, because there was that assumption. If we just show the general public, as. I mean, that was everywhere, people will.
The average person will side with us, and that's just not the case.
But there's actually there. It's not just about, you know, what, you know, exposure being insufficient. The conversation became what do we need to do to actually get results? And this played into that. So, Christine, I want you to talk about not only we're changing the strategy because exposure was not getting the results that we want, but it, but the enforcement, the confidential confidentiality, the avoiding media actually has benefits, right, to our cases.
[00:18:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, first and foremost, it honors the woman involved when we take a more discreet approach at first and really assess all of the facts.
You know, sometimes I see some media blasts go out with stories, and the first thing I think of is, is the woman involved in this, did she consent to all of this attention?
[00:19:05] Speaker A: You know, Is she aware? Right?
[00:19:07] Speaker B: Is she aware? Did she want all of this? How was that information obtained?
Because oftentimes you can trace it back and it wasn't obtained from the woman herself.
And we, we really never want to re traumatize someone, you know, from what they, from what they went through. So first and foremost, this approach, the main benefit is it honors the woman, you know, involved in the situation, the victim of, you know, whatever horrible occurrence happened.
And then it also creates a safe space for whether it's the woman herself or a situation where, you know, some pro life advocate, a sidewalk counselor, someone like that is bringing us information, a whistleblower. It creates a safe space for them to really assess what it means to bring said information to the right people. The first question that I always get from someone giving me information literally 99% of the time is, what does this mean for me? Is my information going to be public? Are people gonna find out who I am?
Can I be anonymous? You know, all those kinds of things people wanna know. And if our first knee jerk reaction is exposure, we can't account for any of those questions. We can't step back and help people feel comfortable. And then oftentimes the people bringing us information will get scared if their information is just blasted everywhere. They're gonna stop talking, they're not gonna want to do this, and then justice can't be served, you know, if you don't, if we don't have those key people bringing us the information. So, you know, that's really the first main point is creating a safe space for the women, for the people bringing us information. And then also it's just more effective to work with the actual, you know, state, federal, whatever entities responsible for that enforcement piece that, you know, that we, that we adhere to when we're, you know, going through an investigation, enforce or sorry, exposure, it lets a lot of people know, but it's not really people that can do anything about it, you know, and so that's why you don't see a lot of results with pure exposure or exposure first. But when you come in with that enforcement and say, all right, who is responsible? For example, the medical board, and then you go into, well, how do you need to report to the medical board? Right, there's a process and the medical board, the people responsible, responsible for enforcement are going to be more likely to work with you. If you go through the correct process, you bring information to them the right way.
So it's just, it's objectively more effective to focus on enforcement. Who is responsible for the enforcement and following all of those, all of those protocols.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And I have seen this firsthand so many times working with law enforcement, with regulatory agencies. When we come in and we say, hey, we're not going to the media, we're, we're going to follow your protocol. Help me help you. You know, they are so relieved because essentially what happens when you go to the media first is you've kind of thrown them under the bus before you've given them a chance to correct it. And sometimes, you know, organizations will tell will do like campaigns like call your local like you just made their lives a living hell. Right. Their offices are getting inundated with emails and phone calls about something they don't even know about or you haven't given them the opportunity to address correctly or you haven't followed or maybe the information is just not credible enough. Like yes, at face value, it sounds terrible, but unless there's documented firsthand evidence, so you've put the agency that has the ability to do something immediately on the defensive and that's just not, they're not going to be helpful. Right. And so by not going to media, it's not only helped foster those relationships, but it's gotten us into rooms, gotten us into, into meetings that pro lifers in different communities had, had had trouble for years getting because they weren't willing to make that commitment of like, hey, we're not, we're not going to the media. You know, we're going to, we're going to talk about this, we're going to give you the opportunity, we're going to use discretion.
And it's just open doors. And so not only is it addressing a problem that has existed where we're not getting results, it's protecting these people involved, it's protecting these women and just strategically it works better.
And I'll say one more thing to add on. When it comes to protecting everyone involved, what was essentially happening, and this is something that we found out, like we didn't know this until we started what was then re protection.
This was a brand new idea and we were really talking to other leaders, to people in the movement, people that were seeing like we were trying to get a feel for what we were working with and what was the best way to address things.
And we started talking to people in every state, pregnancy centers and cyboc advocates across the country. And we were told the same thing over and over and over and over again. And it was, we've basically been sitting on this information and we've had nowhere to Take it.
Because they were not comfortable with media exposure. And, you know, predominantly the women themselves, they don't. They do not want people to know they had an abortion, right?
And the sidewalk advocates in the pregnancy centers, they're in protective mode of the client, this vulnerable client that they're working with. And so we actually had an uphill battle here when explaining to people what we were doing, especially the pregnancy centers.
I was always met with resistance when I would initially approach a pregnancy center because they assumed that we were exposure, that we were doing media exposure, because that's really only the context that they had. But one conversation with me once I would explain how we handled it, the response was always like, oh, thank God. Okay. I mean, I'm pretty sure Jerrel. Literally, like, when I met Jerrell Godsey, the president of Heartbeat, the largest pregnancy center affiliate in the world affiliate group, I was explaining, and I watched his body language. He was like, if you're listening, you can't see me. But he was, like, tense. He was kind of, like, very withholding.
David B. Wright had introduced us, and he was like, hey, trust me, like, talk to Missy. And he was like, oh, God, here we go again. Like. And I went, no, no, no, no. We want to be trauma informed. And I was explaining to him, and he visibly was like, oh, thank God. We've needed this so badly. And it led to them asking us to create our trainings for the pregnancy centers for the psych advocates on how do you identify a violation, how do you document it appropriately? Because that did not exist. It does not exist anywhere.
And it's just become this outlet for all of these amazing pro life groups to finally go, oh, there's a safe place that we know our client, the woman, the vulnerable client we're working with is going to be cared for, is going to be honored, you know, is going to be.
Her information is going to stay, remain private. And that was just a relief, I would say.
And so all of a sudden, there's all this information that comes forward, you know, that they've just been sitting on for years. And we opened. We had to finally say, like, okay, we.
Like a hundred cases. And we're like, okay, I'm sorry, we have to just be more choosy.
But it really. It really was.
I mean, I would say it would be enough to say this protects the women involved, right? Period, end of sentence, right? Like, that could be reason enough. We could say this is to protect the women. But there are these really, like, practical, positive outcomes from taking this approach, because I Know, there's a couple more things. Christine, talk a little bit more about how staying behind the scenes like we do until a case is closed, just practically what that practically looks like and why it's helpful.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Well, you know, and you touched on this, but it definitely builds our credibility with these different agencies.
And, you know, just for the sake of people listening, when I say agencies, entities, you know, think most commonly it's a health department, you know, or a medical board, those are, you know, probably the most. The most common people that I deal with. And when I'm dealing with a specific medical board investigator or a different, you know, admin in the health department, they just, they want to do their jobs and they, you know, I. My goal is to have a working relationship with them. It's not me against them coming in, assuming that they're not going to do their job or assuming that they have bias. I have no idea if they have bias or if they're competent yet, you know, so I go in there neutral and, you know, just talk things through with them, present them information. And again, I want to go back to when things are just exposure first. Everything's all over the place when I look at that. Again, I don't know where all of this information came from. And when I bring information to a state or federal agency, it's only information that I vetted myself, and I know where it came from. And so I'm giving them credible information that's not going to get them in trouble. They know that what I'm giving them is, you know, things that they can ethically and legally work with. And that's really, really important because just like us as an organization, if someone brings me information and it's either obvious or I suspect it could have been obtained illegally or unethically, I'm not going to touch it. We're not going to open an investigation. And likewise, these agencies will respond in the same way. If you're bringing them information or they just see information and they don't know, you know, their suspicions of how, you know, the intel happened. If there's informed consent there, if there's HIPAA violations that have gone on, they're not going to want to work, you know, on. On that specific case. So it's. It's just really important that any investigation that we handle, all the information is, is vetted appropriately. And.
[00:30:08] Speaker A: And they know that. Yeah, right, they know that. And, and I think, because that was a huge point of contention, I think between the movement, the pro life movement being so frustrated that these agencies weren't acting, but at the same time, they are. They have such a narrow window of what they can act on. And, you know, what we had to say was we had to figure out, okay, what information do they need to actually act? And the standard now, it's not as high as a medical malpractice, but it's still high. It has to be firsthand credible, like directly from the source. And I think what was happening was in. In good. In good faith. These pro lifers were bringing things to their attention, but they were not directly involved or it was secondhand information. And unfortunately, that just doesn't help, you know, and, and then those. Those are the stories that are going to the media, right? And everybody's getting upset, but the agency is going, I can't do anything with that. You know, like, you don't have standing. Or we, you know, the woman has to sign over her medical records. And a lot of these cases, if they can't see her medical records, there's no case. And so it really came down to. It's not just about protecting the woman, but like the agencies getting good information and then being able to do something with it and not hindering their process and building that credibility. And I will say, too, it's not just the agencies, even like open records people, you know, like, well, when I.
[00:31:43] Speaker B: Had first, a whole other state agency is who handles records, right?
[00:31:48] Speaker A: So, like, I would. We're getting a little bit into one of our other principles, which is just going in, building relationships and going in, you know, with a collaborative approach and neutral. But just. Just for a funny. Yeah, just for. Just for context, like, what. When it was really just me and one other person way back in the starting days, and we were predominantly working in Kentucky, me and Darlene, every month I would send her. She was a vital records, open records. And I'd be like, hey, Darlene. And she knew. And she'd be like, thanks. And then we kind of had a friendly banter. And then over the years, at one point I noticed that her last name changed, and I was like, darlene, your name changes? She's like, yeah, I got married. I'm like, congratulations. I've never met this lady in my life. But we just went in, like, being professional, making their jobs easier and building a friendship. And Darlene and I were in communication probably for three years. And so I think it's just in general, like, taking a more.
Just collaborative, but also a high standard approach of professional, credible and collaborative now. But here, you know, here's the kicker is this is why you don't hear much about our ongoing cases, you know, and that was something that came up all the time when we first started.
Because that's not a good, let me tell you, that's not a good fundraising strategy. And Amy, Amy's shaking your head. It's not a good fundraising strategy.
[00:33:21] Speaker C: It's not, it's not. It makes hard, it makes it very.
[00:33:23] Speaker A: It makes it very hard. And it's one of the reasons that we have been, we've grown slower than we've needed to in the funding department because we made this commitment. And, but it's a double edged sword here because it's also why we've been able to establish credibility and get results. And so it's been a, it's a sacrifice we made on the front end knowing that this is not a good fundraising strategy to not talk about our ongoing cases. But, but in the long run, we're going to be better for it, we're going to have a better program for it, we're going to be able to protect it ethically. I just feel better about it.
So it's quiet, but when we do have results, it is incredibly powerful. And that's the part that I say we're playing the long game. We're playing a long, quiet game. But when we have a win, it's huge. Entire facilities are permanently closed. Physicians have to stop practicing. You know, one physician is banned from ever doing abortions again. Like full reforms are implemented. And we did all of it without a single press conference. Right, right. And I, I do just want to.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: Make one point too. You know, oftentimes in our work and the people we hear from, the point is always made that abortion, the abortion industry, abortionists, they always seem to kind of get a free pass. Right? Like literally, people who are convicted of child abuse get to still perform abortions.
[00:34:55] Speaker C: Right.
[00:34:55] Speaker B: That's one of our cases. We see just the worst of the worst, still allowed to have their medical license in practice. And, you know, that's where we come in to say, all right, you don't get a free pass here. You know, you have to be held to the same standards as everyone else. And so likewise, we can't expect as pro lifers to get a free pass of, you know, not going through the proper process and channels that medical board, you know, the health department, etc has. So we can't just come in and say, well, look at this crazy story, look at this information. It's really, really bad. It's really, really awful. Do something. It's like, well, no, you have to go through things and you have to prove things and all of those processes have to happen, which takes a long time. It's not fast. Almost never is it fast. So, you know, we have to be held to the same standards as every medical board investigation or what have you. Just like we want to hold the abortion industry accountable to, you know, the standards that every doctor should be held to.
[00:35:57] Speaker A: Yeah, we don't, we don't get, you know, special treatment here. And they have jobs to do and they have to do their jobs. And there's some times where we do have to push, where they're not wanting to touch a case and we'll push on those. But again, it comes down to giving them the opportunity to do the right thing and work the system appropriately and get results. So recently this is all coming up because there's been two very real world examples that illustrate these differences. So we're going to talk about two cases that I'm sure you have seen. If not, we're going to give a little bit of context, but we're going to kind of talk about how these cases are the same, but then how they deviated and went opposite directions here and what is the real impact of those. So, Amy, let's start with what happened in Colorado recently.
[00:36:56] Speaker C: Sure. So like Missy said, a lot of you have probably seen this either in traditional media or in social media in this Colorado. Oh my gosh, it's just so horrible on so many fronts. In case you haven't seen this, a little bit of background. A very young woman visited the Planned Parenthood facility in Fort Collins, Colorado. I believe it was during her abortion. This very young woman had a life threatening, very, very dangerous complication. And as we have seen time and time and time again with Planned Parenthood, they did not take appropriate emergency procedures. They delayed. And by the time this woman received medical intervention, it was too late and she died. And that's not the end of this, though. It gets worse.
A couple weeks ago, this young woman's story and picture began circulating and going viral throughout social media. I was actually visiting my mom and she and I were both scrolling through our phones and my mom goes, oh, Amy, you must know about this story, this horrible thing that happened in Colorado. And I said, what? Because we were aware of this case, we were doing what we do so.
[00:38:16] Speaker A: Well, taking this, we were already working on it.
[00:38:19] Speaker C: We were already working this case, taking the steps, making good progress to get this to the appropriate authority. So my mom texts me over the story and here not Only is the story of this girl's tragic death. Here is her picture.
So I. It was just immediately horrifying. I texted it right away to. To Missy and Christine. But a. Our investigation was completely jeopardized, completely compromised. And this young woman, I mean, you can only imagine she probably was having this abortion because she thought it was her only way out. Who knows why she was having it? But we all know that women who choose abortion are often, often feel like they have no other choice. She probably didn't want anyone to know about it. And now not only has she tragically passed away, the whole country knows what happened to her. And we learned in the ensuing time that her immediate family did not give permission for her story to be broadcast. So, you know, like I said before, it's happened so many times. Her story is a public spectacle. Her family, who should be having a private time of mourning, is completely in the spotlight as well. The whole thing is just absolutely horrible and the perfect example of what should not be done in these types of circumstances. And I mean, we're continuing to work on this case, but as I said, it's extremely compromised. And the fact that this happened is just so tragic on so many fronts.
[00:39:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's going to make any next steps really complicated.
And you know, because now, you know, Planned Parenthood is going to go on the defensive. We. We have, you know, real reason to believe. Like we've seen Planned Parenthoods and other abortion facilities literally destroy evidence, you know, and yeah, now the, you know, government agencies are going to be on the defensive. I mean, it's just, it's going to be hard to rein this back in.
And again, you're going back to who consented for this information to be. Be publicized. And it's one thing for, you know, a media outlet to get a story from open records and choose to do it, whatever. Like, we can get into the moral qualms of the media world, but it wasn't just traditional media. It was pro life organizations that were really pushing this and bringing it to people's attention as a good example of the dangers of abortion.
It is a good example of how dangerous abortion is and the risks that are involved and how terrible these abortionists are.
It was just too soon. Right. The proper channels hadn't been completed. Like I said, we were already involved. We were working with the people involved to get this information to the correct people, to make sure that this planned parent was held accountable. And it's just going to be so much harder. And now, I mean, I'm just going to assume there's no chance that the family would ever work with us. Right.
Like that bridge has been burned. Whereas before we could have approached the family in a more collaborative effort and worked with them. But now they're probably going to be a lot more hesitant to seek justice with how the case has been handled. And a lot of it, like I said, goes back to who consented and how would we feel if our public information was shared, our private information was shared like that. So, I mean, we're going to still try to work on this case and see it through. But like I said, like Amy said, so. Well, like, it's been severely compromised and it's going to be a lot harder. Now we have a perfect example of the opposite happening with this other case. And so, Christine, let's now compare this to the case that has recently come out in Illinois.
[00:42:43] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. So there was another example of just an absolutely horrific outcome of an abortion in this case. The woman did survive, but, you know, what she went through was horrifying. And at the very beginning, about a little over a year ago, the people involved in this specific case, circumstance, came to us and, you know, asked basically, what do we do? You know, we know this information. We don't really know where to take it.
They had already tried to. To give it to, you know, hospital administration where, you know, this, this occurred, and they weren't really getting anywhere. And so, you know, we were able to take all of this information and again, be that safe space for the people involved that wanted to talk to us and make sure. We made sure that, you know, HIPAA wasn't violated and that every little thing, you know, that needs to be kind of in place for this to be successful. We were able to check all those boxes. We never brought it to the media. We never let outside people know. It stayed within our organization and, you know, we did our jobs. And so part of that was letting the people who came to us know, hey, this is how you report this information. This is where this is what the process will look like. Like, and, you know, this is, you know, how we draft complaints and all that sort of a thing.
And as we were talking to the people directly involved, the other thing that we kind of came in to do is make sure that every single avenue of justice, of accountability is pursued, you know, to the fullest extent. And that's what we offer support with. And so the regulatory agencies that needed to be, you know, made aware of what happened to this woman, we, you know, helped make sure that all of that was able to take place in, again, following the correct processes. And then ultimately, this case did meet medical malpractice standards. What happened to this woman was just so incredibly horrifying that she herself ended up deciding to pursue legal action with a medical malpractice case. And I really want to emphasize here that the woman, women herself, chose this. She didn't feel pressure from a media frenzy. She didn't have people knocking on her door, you know, trying to persuade her to do something.
She came to this decision on her own.
You know, we talk a lot about informed consent. Right. And we want to make sure that us as an organization, only facilitate informed consent with victims, you know, that are involved. We never want to be involved in pressuring or anything like that. And so this woman decided herself that she wanted to be involved in a medical malpractice lawsuit, which is. This is public record. The things in this lawsuit are public record, and all parties involved know that. So that's why we're talking about it now is because you can go and get these records and, you know, find out what happened. And, you know.
[00:45:53] Speaker A: But she's Jane Doe.
[00:45:55] Speaker B: Yes. Her name. Yep, yep, yep. She's Jane Doe on the lawsuit record.
[00:45:58] Speaker A: Jane Doe. Whereas in the Colorado case, she's.
[00:46:02] Speaker C: Her name is out there for the world to see. Every picture.
[00:46:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Very, very important point. Right.
[00:46:07] Speaker A: Because it's a. She went the correct avenues. There are literally protections in place in these systems for the victims, you know, and it's like if you. If you go the right approach. And when did we start working on this case?
[00:46:23] Speaker B: It was February 2024. So a little year.
[00:46:27] Speaker A: A little over a year ago.
This horrific. I mean, if you read the story in the news, you need a trigger. This was one. This was one of the few cases that I got off the phone and I had to take a minute. I mean, I was sick to my stomach. I was. And I am a brick wall most of the time. Like, I don't. I do not.
I have. I've been so desensitized. That is how horrific this case was. And I think.
And any other. If we had the old mentality, if this is so horrific, everybody needs to know it would have completely messed with our ability to move this forward. But, you know, so. And. And I remember having to prep Christine before I even told her about this case. I was like, you, trigger warning. It is graphic. So if you read about it, just heads up. It is graphic.
[00:47:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:25] Speaker A: But we sat on it and we talked to the appropriate people, and we said, okay. We need to make sure all of the correct avenues are explored and that could be medical malpractice. Now, at first, from what I understand, she did not. She was hesitant. She was like, I don't want to deal with medical, you know, correct.
[00:47:45] Speaker B: It took her a little while.
[00:47:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. And people gave her space and just talked to her. And we're just very kind and understanding and just like, we just want to make sure you have all of your options here. And like Christine said, she decided, but because we took the appropriate steps. Her name is Jane Doe and that is a protective measure that's going to stay in place.
And now, yes, her story is public, but there's still a piece that she can stay anonymous here. And I think that is just so incredibly important and that she decided right. It's about. This is empowering for her. She gets her voice because imagine how violating it feels already to have a botched abortion. You're in your most vulnerable position and then you just feel violated over and over again with people sharing really personal, graphic details about you. But like she, in an empowered moment of looking for accountability, she made that decision. And this could very well be a part of her healing journey is that she gets justice against this, you know, just absolutely ridiculously, you know, dangerous abortion, abortionist in Illinois.
And so this is just a perfect example of horrific things happening. Now. I'll make this. I'm going to make another note just off the side here.
Both of these were cases in states with, where abortion is fully legal, is completely unrestricted, is taxpayer funded, and this is. These were the outcomes. So that's just, just put that in the back of your head. These were not in states where there were was any, any restrictions on abortion, which we have noted actually goes the other way in creating a more dangerous situation, as exemplified in these cases.
But it. This in all, it's a perfect example of why the method of exposure versus enforcement really matters, especially right now, post Roe, in the climate we are in, we have to be so wise, we have to be so intentional. We have to be above board. I mean, we have to just really consider how we are looking at each situation and handling it with the most care.
Amy or Christina, is there anything else that you want to add onto that?
[00:50:40] Speaker C: Coming from Illinois, you were just talking about how both of these cases were in states like where abortion is funded, legal, there are no restrictions, et cetera.
Working there as long as I did, I mean, you just have to be so careful because at least in Illinois, those who support abortion are absolutely radicalized. And they will do anything to stop the pro life movement. So this is why what happened in Colorado is so tragic. Because the pro abortion movement there, I have no doubt will go into hyperdrive to try and eradicate this case in Illinois. This case came out of nowhere and it is dealing with a well known abortionist who has been suspected of doing horrible things for years. And now, because we were so strategic, so careful with the information, something really big could be about to happen in the state of Illinois, which is just incredible because there's not a lot that can happen there on the legislative front. But what we're doing can really affect change in places like Illinois, Colorado, California, New York, you name it.
[00:51:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. These are real examples, like the Illinois case.
This is a physician in Illinois who is facing accountability for his dangerous practices. And most people, when I tell them about what we do, are like, oh, but you can't do that in Illinois. And I'm like, yes, we can. We absolutely can. Look at this. We have a physician in Illinois with no abortion restrictions, is now facing accountability.
[00:52:31] Speaker C: Right. Well, and I always like to tell people two of our biggest victories were in New York state. I mean, New York, where people think nothing can be changed with abortion. And we were able to stop two Planned Parenthood facilities from opening. So yes, this, the strategy works everywhere.
[00:52:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
So there's a whole other aspect to this that this was actually initially what we were going to talk about before these two cases went public.
And that is there's this whole other piece of exposure that comes up all the time in our cases. And so much so that we were like, let's just do a podcast addressing this. So what we're going to jump into now is actually what the original conversation was going to be about. And then these other two perfect examples came up. But I don't want to ignore what we were originally going to talk about. And it's a whole other side of exposure. And it deals more with in the moment, especially for people that are on the sidewalk, that are outside the facility, or if the pregnancy center is next door. When you see an ambulance, Right. And the history of the movement has been you see an ambulance, you take a picture, you document it, and then you try to figure out what happened and file complaints. And it has always felt like this big, like, gotcha moment. And then these stories, there's been so many stories about how many ambulances are at these facilities. And every time an ambulance shows up at a facility, and it's something that comes up all the time in our trainings with sidewalk advocates and pregnancy centers. They go, well, what if we see an ambulance?
So we're going to talk about when you see an ambulance, what to do, how to document it, but also why it's not, why exposure in that moment, again, is not really helpful for a number of reasons, and what we can actually do with this information. So, Christine. Well, actually, Amy, let's start with you, because we have. You had a similar experience here too. Because I think this is originally what we had talked about when we were discussing the subject is you were like, oh, yeah, when you see an ambulance. Right. That's such a gotcha moment.
[00:54:58] Speaker C: Right, Right. Yeah. And for those of us in the pro life movement who were. Well, I guess this isn't 100% true. For me, not being a person who was on the sidewalk or in a pregnancy resource center, I thought, oh, well, if an ambulance pulls up to an abortion facility, that means something horrible has happened. That means they've botched an abortion or messed up anesthesia or something like that. And as I've gotten more into this work, I found that that is not exactly true. Without thorough research, without thorough documentation, a lot of times we don't know why that ambulance is pulling up. We don't know. A lot of times you see what could be construed as nefarious behavior at an abortion facility that actually has a perfect, rational, non nefarious explanation. I mean, we know that horrible things are happening inside abortion facilities. Obviously, babies are dying in the most brutal ways and women are being horribly, horribly taken advantage of. But in order to hold an abortion facility accountable, as Christine so eloquently explained, there has to be documented evidence of something being done that's illegal, that violates medical code, that violates basic patient practices. So I have come to learn through my years in the pro life movement and especially here during my time at center for Client Safety, that you have to be really careful and that what we do in documenting our work and documenting what people report to us and documenting what we actually see has to be investigated so thoroughly because what you see is not always what you get.
[00:56:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I, you know, and I, I want to take a second and talk about, you know, talk to the people that are on the sidewalk who are seeing these things, you know, and when you see an ambulance, it's okay to note to yourself or, you know, jot a little note in your phone or whatever that you saw an ambulance on, you know, this date at this time, this is what the ambulance said on it. And, you know, you want to pass that along to us.
You can definitely do that. I accept all, you know, reports of an ambulance being there to keep on file, you know, to have on record. But just because an ambulance was there, as Amy said, doesn't mean that it's actually a full blown investigation.
There are very legitimate medical reasons that someone might need to be transferred. You know, they could have had a reaction to a medication, they, you know, could have blood pressure issues that need a higher level of care. You know, there's just, there's various things that could necessitate an ambulance transfer. And I've actually talked to EMTs about this because I've just had questions and, you know, about emergency protocols and things like that.
And oftentimes when someone says, you know, oh, there's X number of ambulances that we've seen, you know, in X number of years, and when you actually break it down, it's not an alarming number. It is normal to have ambulance transfers at medical, you know, facilities.
[00:58:17] Speaker A: And although surgical.
[00:58:19] Speaker B: Yes, especially surgical. Surgical. Medical facilities. And, you know, at the end of the day, we have to remember that even though we don't agree with it, abortion is legal, you know, in certain states and they're happening. And, you know, if you saw an ambulance outside of an urgent care facility, you wouldn't say, oh, you know, we're going to just publicize this and make a complaint because they obviously failed, you know, they obviously failed to diagnose something or whatever. No, I mean, different facilities are going to have ambulance transfers. That's going to happen. And so just because there's a certain number of them, it doesn't necessarily mean, oh, that's, you know, that's an outrageous amount. That's something that has to, to be done. It could just be, you know, normal in the, in the medical community. And that's the kind of thing that, you know, the health department or whoever is not going to take seriously. They're going to say, no, you don't, you know, you don't have a case here. So however, sometimes, you know, documenting when ambulances are there, it can lead to something. You know, it could actually be an abnormal amount of ambulances or, you know, you might notice a trend that every single time this particular doctor is there, there's X number of emergencies, you know, and it opens it up to say, all right, well, let's investigate this doctor. What is their history? Is there something here that, you know, the medical board, you know, needs to investigate? So I definitely don't want to deter people from giving me information but you know, I do like to outline. Just because someone gives me information doesn't mean there's something, you know, that can be done about it. It might just be on file for historical knowledge or something that doesn't lead to anything. And the other thing, you know, when you're there documenting it, all we need you to do is again, note what happened in your head, send us a quick message. You can note it on your phone, but we don't need a picture, you know, of what's going on. I see that very often. And we really have to step back here and think, what if you were that woman, right, and, and you're getting loaded into an ambulance, potentially bleeding, feeling probably the absolute most vulnerable she might ever feel in her life, and she just looks over and sees a phone pointed at her.
That's horrifying and it's just wrong.
So we really, really want to be careful here that we remember that an actual woman, a person with a life, a soul is getting transported to the hospital. And you don't know why.
So we really need to take a step back and remember that.
[01:01:01] Speaker C: And yeah, and I just want to reiterate, I didn't want to be too discouraging about people reporting stuff because, you know, if you see something, say something, don't take a picture, just let us know because we do have ways of establishing patterns. And what you might not think is anything could be something. And one really good example is we had a case in Wisconsin where a sidewalk advocate saw something that raised a red flag. She wasn't sure if she should report it or not, and so she decided to. And that actually led to a huge victory. What she saw was a huge red flag. We were able to report it. And usually our work is measured in months and years, not days and weeks, but we, we were able to get a victory in that case in just a matter of months. So, you know, if you see something, do say something, but just don't assume because you saw something you think is horrible that it's necessarily going to lead to a full blown investigation.
[01:01:59] Speaker B: And it goes back to the piece of I have to verify things before I submit them to agencies. So if there's something that's just simply, absolutely not provable or even, you know, remotely close to that, you know, that might be something that, you know, just isn't, isn't a full investigation that, that we can launch. But again, yes, I, you know, you're.
[01:02:22] Speaker A: The way I see it is the ambulance showing up in and of itself is not the gotcha moment. It's. It's not the case. Right. It can inform a case. It can be a part of a case. It could point us in the right direction of a case. Like you said with. Is it only when the doctors, certain doctors are showing up or, you know, there's a lot of. There's a lot of questions we can ask.
But the event of an ambulance showing up itself, probably not going to be a singular case. Right. And we especially don't, you know, don't need a picture. And like you said, and I've used this example a lot when I'm explaining to people, like, imagine being that woman and looking over and, you know, you see the phone up in this extremely private and probably wants it to be secret. I mean, that just feels. Again, are we considering what, what is the best way for. Are we protecting her, you know, in this process, or are we too focused on shutting down this facility or getting, you know, accomplishing our goal that we lose sight of her in this moment? I did. While we were talking, I actually texted my friend who works at an outpatient surgical center. She's a crna. And so I said just to get. I was like, I need, I need something to compare. I was like, I'm just going to text her really quick. And I just said, how many times on. On average do you have to call an ambulance for somebody? And her answer was really interesting because she was like, you know, it's. That's a tough. It's tough. It's a tough question. But she said solely surgical complications are probably pretty rare. And it's usually aspiration with anesthesia. You know that. So that's a complication to consider.
But she said we're more likely to call because we have someone who has a medical issue like chest pains or like something else that's happening. You know, she says they're more likely to call. And that's what I've kind of have heard. It's like seizures or heart condition or something that's like maybe flares up or, you know, again, a reaction, anesthesia. So the ambulance itself does not necessarily mean it is a botched abortion. Now, we have just spent. I'm going to also say this. We have just spent almost an hour talking about two cases with horrific complications. Right. They do happen.
But again, these were. We did not get called because people saw the ambulance at the facility. Right.
They went to the emergency departments.
You know, we. We did the investigation.
So really, there are more. There are easier ways or more credible ways. There are better ways to follow up on complications. Now, knowing an ambulance came again, helpful. It's just a piece.
And, and like I said, especially not publicizing that because I, I just don't. I don't. I don't want to set an unrealistic standard here, too, of like, because I think when you're talking to the emt, he said, you know, eight or nine calls in a year is pretty standard, right? Yeah, it's pretty standard.
[01:06:00] Speaker B: Also depends on the number of patients that they're seeing. And we don't know from the outside who's going in for what you can assume, but, you know, so it has to do with how many appointments are actually for surgical abortions. How many patients are they seeing? You know, there's. There's, you know, a lot there. And I really quickly did want to say something, you know, when you were talking about your contact there, your. Your friend who said, you know, sometimes they call an ambulance for chest pains or whatever. You have to think, too, maybe this ambulance is transferring this woman because of something that happened before she even got her abortion. And that could be, you know, an experience that she didn't get her abortion that day. We don't. We want to be careful that as pro lifers out there on the sidewalk, we're creating an environment where maybe she's going to want, if she comes back, she wants to talk to us out on the sidewalk. Right. And not. Not an alien. An alienating environment where she was escorted out of that facility and she sees all those people pointing phones at her, you know, and she's not gonna want to come back and talk to you.
[01:07:04] Speaker A: Right.
[01:07:04] Speaker B: So I think that's just really important to remember is you don't know why she's getting transported to a hospital. And we want to leave that open for, you know, communication in the future. If that woman wants to, you know, come back and talk to you if she finds herself at the abortion facility again, or if she goes to a pregnancy center or any other kind of pro life resource, you know, that you might be involved in. So I think that's important to remember.
[01:07:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it just. Every one of our cases, it just comes down to what protects her, what actually helps the case, what moves us forward, you know, towards justice.
And sometimes that means gathering evidence quietly, you know, filing complaints through the right channels, but not saying anything about it publicly and letting the process, you know, work, you know, work its way through. And. And it's not that we are hiding. It's not that we are cowards or, or we don't Want people to know it's that we're stewarding it. Right. We are stewarding these cases. We are stewarding these women's experiences and their. In their lives. We are, we want to be wise stewards of the information that we are given. And from the very beginning, when I was asked to kind of take this idea of bridging the gap between the laws on the books and holding the facilities accountable, I kept coming back to what is the most effective way forward? What is the most effective. What is the most efficient and effective way forward? And that's what we want to do.
And considering all of these different components and aspects to every case, we're already almost over an hour, so I know we need to wrap up. So anything that you guys just in general want to add about our strategy, our work, you know, any, any final thoughts?
[01:09:12] Speaker B: I guess a quick note too is we also keep in mind when we're talking to these agencies and whatnot, that we don't want to make it look like we are specifically targeting abortion facilities when we're trying to, you know, make a complaint about something because they can claim that they're being unfairly targeted. You know, we've seen before agencies that don't want to work with particular, you know, groups or about a specific situation because it looks like an abortion facility is being unfairly targeted or, you know, even when pro life legislation is worked on and passed, it can be really compromised if it looks like during that process, yeah, you know, certain facilities or what have you are targeted. So when we make, or when someone makes a claim that, you know, there was 12ambulances this year and that's 12 botched abortions and like we discussed, you don't know if that's the case. It can really damage progress with, you know, legislation that can help regulate abortion facilities and really anything ongoing there. So that's something else that, you know, we are very, very careful about. It's center for Client Safety and we just, you know, encourage everyone to be, to be careful about that and think big picture. It can be really emotional when you are the one out there on the sidewalk seeing the horrors of the facility happen day in and day out. But sometimes we really, really need to just draw everything we can from ourselves to, to allow a big picture view to happen.
[01:10:50] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:10:51] Speaker A: What I tell Goldie is stop and take a breath. Yeah, stop and take a breath and figure out what you need to do. I didn't even think about that. But you're right. I mean, it's not only our investigations, but the Publicity of these cases could have larger implications and impact even bigger strategies and projects and things like that. It's not just us, and now we are particularly passionate about how it impacts us. But yeah, you're right, there are bigger ramifications and that's, and I would say too, a growing distrust in the pro life movement and our lack of credibility. Kind of what we were talking about earlier, the lack of credibility and the sensationalism. I think a lot of that is unfortunately a negative outcome of the knee jerk reaction to expose instead of taking time to take it through the appropriate channels. Amy, anything else you want to add?
[01:12:09] Speaker C: Well, I would be remiss if I didn't tell everybody that all of the work of the center for Client Safety is funded primarily through individual private donations. And we are a 501c3 organization and you can support our work at centerforclientsafety.org but yeah, I've had a great time being on the podcast and as the newest member of the team, I just want to say it is so wonderful to be here and everyone, this work is really, really making a difference.
[01:12:40] Speaker A: You say newest member? You've been here for over a year, so.
[01:12:42] Speaker C: Well, yeah, it's gone by in a flash. It feels like a week. Yeah, we're having a great time and doing really good work.
[01:12:50] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. Well, this was so fun. I mean, I always love getting to, we're all remote so we don't get to always be together. But I love my conversations with Amy and Christine. And like I said, maybe we'll do this, you know, more often where you can hear from the three of us. But, and I will say I'll apologize, we haven't been as consistent on our schedule of every other Friday.
Things are just a little crazy for a while, but we're trying to get back into the routine, get some more people scheduled. I've got some guests coming up that I think you'll be really excited to hear about.
But in the meantime, feel free to check out our
[email protected] don't forget, you can buy coffee through the link in the show notes for seven weeks. We get a percentage of every bag of coffee bought on that link from our amazing board member, Anton Kresik, who runs seven Weeks Coffee. You can find us on socials at center for Client Safety. You can find me on socials at Missy. Martina Stone, please, please go to our website, look at all the amazing work that we've done and look for ways that you can partner if you're interested. We need partners and support now more than ever.
We are in high demand, and we are a small team with a. With a small budget. But we are seeing there's. There's a lot of really huge opportunities on the horizon and that we want to make sure that we don't miss. So thank you so much for being here, and we'll see you next time.
Sa.
