[00:00:06] Speaker A: This is Missy Martinez Stone and you're listening to the Centered Podcast where we have unifying conversations on the divisive subject of abortion.
Hi and welcome to the Centered Podcast. I'm your host, Missy Martinez Stone. And I know it's been a little while. We had to take a little bit of a break at the beginning of the year because we were just so incredibly busy with new cases, with new opportunities, and we just got absolutely buried in work. But now we are launching, I would consider, season two. So we have a lot of amazing guests coming up, including some of our new partners.
My pro choice sister in law, who is my best friend, has agreed to have a conversation with me.
Some just really interesting. And, you know, we want to continue to have really thoughtful, nuanced conversations where we're building bridges, where we are looking at our work and making sure that it's results driven and that we're actually accomplishing what we want to and that we aren't hurting people in the process. So those conversations will continue.
But to kick off this season, I guess, of course I'm going to have on Christine Smith our now her title, Chief Investigations Officer, which just sounds so cool. It's just such a cool. I like that title.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: I enjoy it.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And we wanted to talk specifically about some case dynamics that we are dealing with and really what it takes to break through in these cases, what it takes to see them all the way through. Because a lot of people wonder, like, why do our cases take so long and, you know, what are we actually doing? And we've talked a little bit about that, but there's just a couple examples that our team members, you know, Amy and Christine, wanted to, to bring to light. So, you know, I'm not going to assume that all of you have listened to everything we put out. So Christine, just give a little bit of a background about what we do, what you do, just to kind of set the stage for this conversation.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: Yeah. So my job here is handling every single piece of information that comes through. I have to decide if it's something that we can actually turn into a full fledged investigation, determine if a law was actually broken, a regulation was violated, and then I start strategizing and figure out exactly where we're going to take this information, which is what we're going to talk about today is figuring out, you know, the right places to take information to. That's essentially my whole job. And then everything else comes after that.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
So for those of you who may not be as familiar with center for Client Safety, what we are looking at is abortion facilities and how they are breaking laws.
The this came to our attention probably, I guess six or seven, almost 10 years ago now, when the, probably the original conversations were going of laws were on the books. And we're not just talking about quote unquote, pro life laws or abortion specific code, but basic health and safety standards are on the books. But because abortion is so politicized, is such a hot topic, agencies are very reluctant to enforce those laws. And then after Roe vs Wade was overturned, we had states like Illinois and California and New York completely deregulate their abortion industry in an attempt to, you know, make up for the fact that abortion was now going to be illegal. And some it was, it was their way of, you know, making a stand. But what they did was they unregulated an entire branch of the medical world which if you talk to the average person, they would say, that's crazy. You know, now we have facilities that the health department doesn't inspect and they don't have to follow building code, anything that other people would have to follow.
And so we're looking at how are these facilities operating and what laws are they breaking, what rules, what health regulations are they breaking, and how can we hold them accountable? Because the people who are harmed are the ones that they're claiming to serve. It's the women that are coming in who are, you know, most likely in a vulnerable population. They're usually young women of lower socioeconomic status, people of color, you know, people in single parents. I mean, they are just some of the most vulnerable women.
And then they're further victimized in these facilities because they refuse to meet basic health and safety standards. So Christine is our main investigator. So when people call us, anybody reports to us. Christine is the one looking at, okay, did a violation occur? If so, what was it? Right?
And then this is where we really distinguish ourselves is what we do with that information. So somebody calls you, you say you were like, okay, did a violation occur? Then what?
[00:05:39] Speaker B: Right? So then we have to figure out who's responsible for enacting the consequences of what the wrongdoing was.
And that is not always an easy process to figure out. You might think, well, I'm just going to submit something to the medical board or the health department. But there's several departments within a health department per se. There's a public health division, there's a licensing division.
There's all sorts of factions within state or federal or local departments. And sometimes really the main battle is figuring out exactly who has the authority to enact a consequence to an abortion provider or an abortion facility.
And I do see often is if you make an attempt and it's not exactly the right place to put this information, they say, you know what, we can just kind of sweep this under the rug and not pay attention to it. They are not interested in directing you to the right place. They're more interested in dismissing you.
Which is why sometimes it's really frustrating for victims in the abortion industry who've suffered harm. These women that have had these situations happen and they think, oh my goodness, okay, I just have to tell someone. And then they do when it wasn't the right person.
And then they think, okay, my story doesn't matter. It's right. You know, and that's where we come in and say, no, no, no, it, it matters. And we're going to get it to the right place.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: So we have to figure out not only who does this information go to, but what is their protocol. Right? And if you think about it, we're dealing with 50 states who have hundreds of agencies and each of them have their own specific protocol. And so a lot of our job is figuring out what is the protocol. And we have specialized in that so that the sidewalk advocates and, and the women themselves and the pregnancy center workers don't have to. Because this can be. This is very labor intensive. Like, this is not just a quick Google. No, this is a long and tedious process. And we were hearing from a lot of the pregnancy center staff that they were trying to submit complaint because they would hear these insane things from these, these victims that they'll come in and they were like, that's illegal. And they would try to submit a.
We've heard this from so many people before we existed. They're like, yeah, I tried to submit a complaint to the medical board and I could. It was so I could not figure out how to do it. And I was like, yes, I know. And they shouldn't have to. They need to spend their time being amazing pregnancy center people. Right?
And so we are navigating all of that. Right.
And really what we have to do is ensure that we give them no reason to discount us or turn us away. Like we, our information is verified, it's documented. We're going to the right place. We're putting it in the correct way. Because you have one tiny error done like it's out, right? You have to treat it almost like a court case. Right. It's not. We're not suing anybody, but it's very similar.
So all of our T's are crossed, all of our I's are dotted. We get this case now here, that was a lot of work. But this is where.
This is where it gets intense. And I think where majority of our work goes in is actually getting that case start to finish, like through the protocol and action on, you know, against the abortion business for breaking the law.
[00:09:25] Speaker B: Right. And I mean, I can give an example. I submitted a complaint one time, and this is actually still an ongoing case, so I'm not going to be super specific with every, every detail and where this is, but I had submitted a complaint to the health department, and I was in the process of figuring out the exact sect of the health department that this needed to go to.
And what ended up happening is everyone tried to bounce it off of each other.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: Yes. When the happened, even before you started, that was something I dealt with all the time. They'd be like, oh, no, this goes to the health department. And the health would be like, oh, no, no, this goes to the medical board. The medical board, like, no, this goes to health department. And I'm like, you guys need to decide where this needs to go.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And so then that's where I come in often. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to decide where this goes by using the actual law. And then what I do is I'm not only researching laws about the violation that occurred. So let's say someone's talking about, you know, drugs that are dispensed improperly, illegally. I'm reading all of those statutes, looking at the laws about drugs and dispensing. But then I'm also looking at the laws of the Administrative Process act in a certain state for exactly how that health department is supposed to operate and how every piece of that health department, the licenser, the licensure unit, the, you know, public health unit, the board of pharmacy under the medical board, which is also under the health department. All of those parts of a unit of a state agency have laws that govern them. And so I also have to dig into that and sometimes, you know, at first gently remind people that they actually are under obligation of the law to enact consequences.
[00:11:11] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: For some reason, oftentimes the default of these agencies is to say, I don't have the authority to do that. And they think that we will go away.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: Yes. Which is what happened. Yeah. Which is what happened to me. So our first closure back in 2021, September 21st, it took a year because of this exact thing.
We helped a Cywalk advocate submit a report for something you know, the girl coming out of the facility screaming, Call 911. I mean, just, we had pages on pages of documentation. He wasn't even licensed as an abortion facility. I mean, 87 year old.
And I could tell immediately that the, the intake officer at the Florida department or medical board was not, she did not want to deal with this. And she said, this is basically not under our jurisdiction. And the CYWIC advocate took that and was like, oh. And I said, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I went back in the code and I found all the code because that's the other thing is you don't, you not only have to find what their protocol is and, but it's like you have to show them that they are responsible for it. And so it was like, hey, in the Medical Practices act, you know, of your state impairment and you know, dangerous and unethical behavior of a physician is your problem. And so we sent that back to her outlining, you know, no, no, no, this is your responsibility because you have to push them and say, because they're going to find every, it's a, it's like a hot potato. They're like, they're going to find every reason why they don't want to take this case.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: And not only that, but they interdepartmentally, they don't communicate, they don't talk, they don't talk. Shock.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: Is anybody surprised by that?
[00:12:52] Speaker B: And it, it kind of is a little shocking when you first see the lack of communication because you're like, well, anyone in their right mind would say, hey, we got this complaint into the medical board. It actually needs to go to the board of Pharmac.
[00:13:06] Speaker A: Yeah, we should let them know. Yeah, right.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: Or if it involves drugs, you would think, oh well, maybe we need to send that over to the Drug Enforcement Agency if there was controlled substances involved. And then what I've seen, especially in a couple of cases that we are just so actively involved in right now, absolutely no communication was happening between either within the state agencies themselves or within, or giving that to another entity, maybe a federal agency or something like that. So I have been having to play liaison in every aspect, bringing every piece of relevant information to the right people and in order to get them all to listen to us.
That's a tall order. It takes a lot of time to pare things down and say, all right, this is what I need to submit over here. This is what I need to tell these people, and this is what I need to tell that agency over there. So they're all working together and they all have the relevant information that goes to them. Because when you sort of have an approach, if you fall into an approach where you're just kind of throwing everything against the wall and see what sticks, these agencies are going to turn off. They're not going to listen to you.
[00:14:18] Speaker A: Because you're basically the boy who cries wolf, right? So, like, what we do because, because people have tried that tactics, they're like, well, we'll just give them everything. I'm like, they're not going to like that. They are not going to like that because you just made their jobs harder and you discounted yourself because you weren't sure, you know, which one was going to. Was. So we have to make those hard decisions of like, what is strategically the one that has the likelihood of the result that we want. And, you know, we have to be. We're very, very, very methodical about, you know, when, when we do the, the thing that, as you're talking, the thing that this reminds me of is that meme of the guy, I think it's from. Is it Psych? Where he's standing at the board and he's like. And it's got the. Oh, yeah. And he's like, yeah, that is what it feels like most days of like, we are making all of these connections and we're like, look, you know, and I know, I know this has happened to me, but you recently, there's been multiple times now where an agency has come back to you after arguing with you and being like, oh, wait, you are actually correct.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Yes, that's always a great feeling.
Yeah, that has happened recently. Multiple times. Most recently, just yesterday, we got great news of a further breakthrough with a case that we're working on that was just really encouraging. And yeah, I was told by people that, no, you don't need to submit information to this certain agency. You can just submit it here. And then my complaints were dismissed and I did further research and I said, no, I'm seeing the code that actually says that this particular aspect of the health department is responsible for enforcement here. And that's what I used to submit my complaint. And sure enough, not even a week later, which was pretty quick for these people, my case was, was opened in.
[00:16:17] Speaker A: The proper place, which people don't understand what a feat that is. Just to get the case opened is already a great sign because if they can find any reason not to open it, they're going to. I mean, that they, they don't want to open cases. So the number of cases that get submitted versus how many get opened is very.
It's a. There's a huge disparity because typically if some. If they feel like there's no. Like, they're only open. They're only going to open cases when they think there is a valid.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:54] Speaker A: Reason.
[00:16:54] Speaker B: Well, and real quick, when you say there's a big disparity, that's. In general with us. Our ratio is.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: Oh, no, ours is great. You know, that's a great. That's a great point. Yeah.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: Yeah. We submit complaints almost always they get open, and if they don't, it's because we have to reroute and submit it somewhere else.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: Right. That's a great. That is a great distinction. What I mean is, in general, complaints are submitted all the time.
We do the extra work to make sure that what we're submitting is valid. Like I said, verified. Like, we know. So that by the time it gets to them, they're like, oh, yeah, there's. There's validity to this complaint.
But like I said, they are not going to open a complaint if they don't think there's any merit to it. And so that in and of itself is already a huge hurdle. Right. They opened it. Now we have to make sure it actually makes it through the process.
Right.
[00:17:56] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I will say to you, I have actually had a law enforcement officer tell me that my job involves more red tape than theirs does, because we constantly. That is our job, day in and day out, is dealing with red tape, which is not typically what people like to do. I kind of find it fun.
[00:18:18] Speaker A: That's why I find it fascinating.
[00:18:21] Speaker B: That's why I do what I do. And Missy does. What she does is because we actually like that. And, you know, we. It's like a puzzle that you have to solve. And, you know, when we get hit with a roadblock and someone says, no, no, no, we don't have authority here, just like Missy explained, we come back and say, no, no, no. Yes, you do. And we don't view that as like, we're defeated. It's literally just a detour that we have to take.
And therefore, we have success because we get things to the. To the right places.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And I'll say, too, a lot of our success is not only because of the way we submit these complaints so that we're very intentional, methodical, you know, verification. Like, we're giving it to them in a way that they want it, but we're kind of like ribbing them a little bit when Christina's talking to these officials. When I'm talking to them, we, we've talked a lot about this, about our spirit of collaboration. Like we are going to them, wanting, wanting to help them solve this problem. Right. And I think between our, I would say now really, our established reputation of just being above board and very professional and they know if they're going to get something from us, that it's, you know, well documented and well done. But also just the spirit in which we approach them, even when we're having hard conversations. Right, right. Is a spirit of collaboration and wanting to work together. And I think that's another thing that makes you so successful at this is after a while, I know for I said, I think on the other podcast, me and Darlene at the Kentucky Open Records Department became friends.
But when you're talking to these officials and stuff, you are kind, but you are firm, right?
[00:20:16] Speaker B: There's a balance. Yeah, for sure.
You know, because we're fighting for life here. Right. We want, you know, these women protected. We want to have less abortions happening. And so there's a lot on the line. And so I don't always just take someone's word for it. Right. Like I don't take a state agency's official's word that they're gonna do everything, but I talk to them in a manner that might suggest I do. I'm friendly with them and. But firm in the sense of like, yeah, okay, great, we're going to do this. And here's how I can hold you accountable to that. The, you know, this is what the law says. And then sometimes we do need to go above people when we're absolutely, you know, getting nowhere. And that's another thing that is very.
Takes a lot of work to figure out the exact right person to go to above another person. So we're following the correct chain of command because that can just to bump you right back down the game. What is it trouble or Sorry. When you get like sent back.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: Sorry. Yeah, I don't know when you have.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: To like get sent back to the start or whatever that can happen if you're not careful and following the correct chain of, of command. You know, when you need to bring these complaints up, up and up to get, you know, the right, the right outcome.
[00:21:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And, and I, I've seen, you know, because we've got one case we're coming up on five years, which just blows my mind because I remember when I got that first submission from then I thought I was like, oh, this is a no brainer. This is an open and Shut.
We could. One day we're gonna. We'll make it. I'll ask my husband to make a documentary about the wildness that was this case. But I remember after it had maybe had been a year and a half or two years at this point, and I was talking to people and talking to pro life leaders in the state and in the meetings that I was able to have and the conversations I was having, and they looked at me and they said, we have been trying to get through those doors for over a decade. And that's happened now, I think, for me, at least at two or three locations where local community members have just absolutely hit a wall with the agencies. And I don't know if it's just some of it is fresh eyes, but also the way that we've approached these cases, like we've been told multiple times, like, we've never been able to get it this far. Like, we've gotten these cases the furthest anyone has been able to get them.
And I think it's because we strike that balance between being respectful, collaborative, but also tenacious, you know, and having that resolve that we're not going to let it go.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: Right. And we are truly in it for the resolution. We're not in it for publicity. You know, we don't meet them with, you know, photo ops and, like, kind of using them as a prop. We are truly using, you know, we're using the system to get a resolution that is, you know, going to have justice attached to it.
[00:23:24] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: You know, and there's a lot of.
It's not just, oh, great, we secured a meeting with someone, we got a case opened, and that's it. Now we're attached to that for the long run, and we need to relentlessly follow up on things and keep coming back to things and make sure the ball never gets dropped.
So very tenacious, I think, is the word you used, and that is definitely applicable here, right?
[00:23:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, I know for a fact, especially in this case that's been going for five years, I know that they probably were like, if we keep stalling, they'll just, like, go away, right? No, no, we're not. We're not. And that's where our supporters come in, is like, you have to help us keep. Stay on these cases. Right. But, like, we invest so much because the payoff is so huge. I mean, yes, it's amazing when one baby's life gets saved and, you know, when we have those amazing moments, but, like, when we can shut down an entire facility or have a physician. I mean, these physicians do tens of thousands of abortions in their career. Right. We pull one of their licenses. I mean, that is thousands and thousands of children.
Right. And so that's why we really dig our heels in and we go, no, we're going to see this all the way through. Because the victory has such a huge impact. I mean, we're looking at, you know, multiple counties that do not have an abortion facility at all anymore. It was the only one in that area. And then, you know, the only abortion facility in Wyoming was closed for a while and we're still, you know, fighting over that one. But there was the only abortion facility in the state of Wyoming.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:19] Speaker A: Was closed.
[00:25:21] Speaker B: And so let me say too, we know amazing pro life pregnancy centers there that are helping women.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: Oh, 100. Yes. Like, yes.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: And so it's just that was such a great collaborative effort there, you know, where the community like stepped up and was like, yeah, we're here for these women, you know. And the other thing is during investigations, even though, you know, some are still ongoing, like we keep mentioning, there are periods of time, like ebbs and flows and during the investigations where facilities will close for a week or two weeks or something like that, and it.
[00:25:57] Speaker A: Or fire all their staff. Yeah. Out of nowhere. Out of nowhere.
[00:26:03] Speaker B: You know, I can't necessarily say 100% because I don't know everything behind the scenes, but it always is in conjunction with progress on our cases.
And it seems pretty clear, seems pretty clear that, you know, while these investigations are happening, there's a direct impact on abortion access. You know, as we get closer, as you know, doctors have to get interviewed because of the investigation that's going on and things like that happen. So even before there's this huge, big victory, there's these little victories along the way that truly end up with lives saved.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, you know, some of them, like our one here in Kentucky before they were closed post Roe, was they had to restructure how they were doing their patient intake because they had somebody claiming to have a social work license, practicing clinical social work, who was not licensed as a social worker. And you know, the, the stereotype is like that the social work world is, is very pro abortion. But let me tell you, what they don't mess with is somebody claiming to have a license that they don't have. Right. So they were on it. They sent her a cease and desist and they had to restructure how they were doing their. Because she was doing all the informed consent conversations. And so it was like, oh, now a registered nurse has to do it, which cost more money. You know, it's like there were ways that those, these small victories before the closure of, like, making them, forcing them into compliance costs them money. Right. And it slows down their processes because that's what makes it safe is that it's slow and, you know, everyone's getting everything that they need, but they don't operate that way. And so sometimes there is the. There are these, like, small, you know, victories on the way. You're right. Yeah.
[00:27:56] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, and I see that the sidewalk advocates on the ground, you know, that talk to me about what's going on. They're like, normally there's 20 women that come on this particular day and it's been closed ever since the medical board opened the investigation because they can't find a doctor that wants to be there. Something like that. That's a really obvious correlation and you can kind of deduce what you want from that. And then we see, you know, 20, 40, 60, 80 lives, you know, were spared.
[00:28:24] Speaker A: Yeah, because there's a. I know, because, you know, you can't just say just because of a facility closed that every single person in that county wasn't going to have an abortion. No, we can't say. But there was a study that came out, I think it was around Christmas, a little bit before Christmas, and it was not a pro life group. It was a, it was, I think, of some, like, it might have been good marker. It was a, it was a pro abortion study. But they're basically showing the effects of states that had made abortion, you know, highly restricted or illegal. And they concluded that if an abortion facility is not within, you know, readily available, that the chances of a woman carrying to term increase 25%. And they calculated that approximately, I think it was like 22 or 25,000 children were alive because of the states that had banned abortion, banned elective abortion. And so we're not just saying, oh, because his facility closed, like we think lives are, you know, like, no, this was, this is actually something that has been proven not by pro life researchers, by pro abortion researchers, that the accessibility of the abortion facility has a lot to do with a woman's decision to go through that or not. So obviously, if it's more easily accessible, their chances are a lot higher.
But when it's not, then they're going to be more thoughtful about this, this decision, you know, because there's a lot more invested into it and it slows down the abortion rate.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: Yeah, right, sure.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: And. And it's not just. Yeah, obviously that is a huge part of it. But again, the people we're shutting down, they don't need to be practicing any medicine.
Right. Like these are people who nobody wants open. Right. Regardless of where you stand on abortion. I mean, Christine, trust me, can tell you just horror stories. There's some of them. We, we have to like take a mental break after we read just the horrific things that these predominantly men have done.
[00:30:33] Speaker B: Right. And they are purposely inserting themselves into the abortion industry because that's the only industry in medicine. They can get away with their behavior.
[00:30:41] Speaker A: Because of the lack of oversight. Right. They can't get jobs at hospitals because they, a lot of them have criminal backgrounds, have, have insane medical malpractice backgrounds or are just so sloppy in their practice that they can't get jobs there. And so where are they going to go? They hide in the abortion industry because of the lack of oversight.
And those are the people that we are shutting down.
Now we were instructed by our amazing team member Amy to only do 30 minutes. So we're coming up on the 30 minutes. Christina and I could talk about this all day. I mean, like, seriously, is there anything else that you want to add before we sign off?
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think that covers it. I just, I really enjoyed talking about this and making it known that there's a lot of work behind the scenes. So much of what we do is behind the scenes. And so it's just really nice to bring that to light a little bit and know that even beyond the legal research and all the work of, you know, what was done wrong, it's a whole other ball game looking at all of the, you know, red tape behind these facilities or, sorry, these state agencies and how to deal with them, managing relationships is just such a huge part of what we do and all of that. So it was great to talk about those things.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And you'll see some, if you're on our email list and following us, you'll see some communication that what Christine references we have. I think two of our main cases have been just a circus of going back and forth and Christine has done a fantastic job on staying on top of them and both of them are finally getting to the people they need to get to. But I mean, it's been her single handedly like carrying this, this through. But we want to be able to see it all the way through and we cannot do that unless we have people coming alongside us, supporting us and helping us stay on top of these cases. I know, like right now you feel like you're giving to something that's really far away.
But we were hoping that this conversation shows you the day in and day out, the work that we're putting in to shutting down these facilities.
And so we have really three that are like on the brink and have been on the brink for a while.
And we're right on that, on that, in that position to see them shut down. But we want to be able to keep going, keep pushing, and even be able to take on more cases soon as these come to a conclusion. So.
Well, thank you so much for this quick, short podcast episode. Like I said, be on the lookout. We'll start publishing soon some new episodes and if you have ideas for people you want to hear from, please feel free. You can message us on social media or reach out to
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